РД на метане

[АниКей]

В ближайшее время на "Прогрессе" обещают заявить "Союз" будущего, пятый. Летать пятый Союз будет на природном газе. Преимущества: более высокие энергетические характеристики, которые позволят выводить в космос больше полезной нагрузки.

"Сегодня мы ведем проект "Союз-5", — говорит Александр Кирилин, генеральный директор Ракетно-космического центра "Прогресс". — Это носитель грузоподъемностью до 9 тонн. Его привлекательность, в том, что среди компонентов топлива там сжиженный природный газ. Мы считаем, что это перспективно".

Первый летный образец "пятерки" для амурского космодрома будет готов через несколько лет. Деталей и сборочных единиц у пятого "Союза" будет в разы меньше, чем на "Союзе-2", а значит, и время на подготовку сократиться. Как подчеркивают конструкторы, пятый "Союз" — не доработка и модернизация, а абсолютно новый проект. Прежнее — лишь название "Союз", ставшее мировым брендом.

 http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=2725119

[Salo]

Seerndv пишет:
Где они теперь, материалы по линейке РД-169, РД-182, РД-183, РД-190, РД-192?
1998г. РД-182 - 311 т у земли и353 т в пустоте.

Вы вместо тяги привели УИ. РД-182 проектировался на базе РД-120 с укороченным соплом и должен был иметь  земную тягу около 80 тс.

[Salo]

http://aviapanorama.su/1998/08/metanovye-zhrd-npo-energomash-im-v-p-glushko/
И попытка реконструкции таблицы с данными:
 

[Виктор Зотов]

АниКей пишет:

В ближайшее время на "Прогрессе" обещают заявить "Союз" будущего, пятый. Летать пятый Союз будет на природном газе. Преимущества: более высокие энергетические характеристики, которые позволят выводить в космос больше полезной нагрузки. "Сегодня мы ведем проект "Союз-5", — говорит Александр Кирилин, генеральный директор Ракетно-космического центра "Прогресс". — Это носитель грузоподъемностью до 9 тонн. Его привлекательность, в том, что среди компонентов топлива там сжиженный природный газ. Мы считаем, что это перспективно". Первый летный образец "пятерки" для амурского космодрома будет готов через несколько лет. Деталей и сборочных единиц у пятого "Союза" будет в разы меньше, чем на "Союзе-2", а значит, и время на подготовку сократиться. Как подчеркивают конструкторы, пятый "Союз" — не доработка и модернизация, а абсолютно новый проект. Прежнее — лишь название "Союз", ставшее мировым брендом.

http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=2725119

Как можно вести проект на метане, не имея метанового двигателя. Бред какой то. А может он уже есть, но нам не говорят? МС-21 начали проектировать на импортном движке. А сейчас и наш ПД-14 подоспел. Может и А-5 также проектируют  на керосине, с надеждой на метан в будущем? Тогда так и говорили бы.

[Seerndv]

Salo пишет:
Вы вместо тяги привели УИ. РД-182 проектировался на базе РД-120 с укороченным соплом и должен был иметьземную тягу около 80 тс.

- упс ... действительно при сохранении страницы табличные данные перекорёжило     :oops:  

Я брал ( скорее всего) из этой статьи  http://epizodsspace.airbase.ru/bibl/nk/1998/17-18/17-18-1998-3.html
( исходя из сохранённого рисунка)

[АниКей]

ТОКИО, 29 фев — РИА Новости. "Новатэк" ожидает начало коммерческого производства сжиженного природного газа на заводе на Гыдане (Ямало-Ненецкий автомномный округ) в 2023 году, сообщил в понедельник заместитель председателя правления компании, одного из акционеров проекта, Денис Храмов.
"Эксплуатационное бурение будет осуществлено в 2018 году, начало коммерческого производства СПГ — 2023 год", — сказал Храмов в ходе заседания форума "Торгово-промышленный диалог: Россия — Япония".

РИА Новости http://ria.ru/economy/20160229/1381739775.html#ixzz41WkQILbh

[АниКей]

... Сейчас в «Прогрессе» работают над новой ракетой «Союз-5». Ее грузоподъемность выше — до девяти тонн, но главное преимущество — она будет работать на экологически чистых материалах, в том числе на природном газе....

 
 

в конце ролика  про Союз-5

[Saul]

Виктор Зотов пишет:
Как можно вести проект на метане, не имея метанового двигателя.

 А "сжиженный природный газ" может быть и "криопропаном", с почти керосиновой плотностью.

[Вернер П.]

Saul пишет:
А "сжиженный природный газ" может быть и "криопропаном", с почти керосиновой плотностью.

Увы, не все что создала природа называется природным газом
К тому же пропан тяжелее воздуха, а это крайне отрицательно сказывается на безопасности

[Salo]

И с сажеобразованием там не айс.

[sychbird]

Salo пишет:
И с сажеобразованием там не айс.

И для разделения пропана и бутана после ожижения гемор гарантирован.

[Apollo13]

http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/03/behind-the-curtain-ars-goes-inside-blue-origins-secretive-rocket-factory/

Propulsion
Much of Blue Origin's factory has been given over to development of the Blue Engine-4, or BE-4. I suspect that's why Bezos finally allowed a handful of reporters into the inner sanctum of his rocket business. Blue Origin is competing with a traditional aerospace company, Aerojet Rocketdyne, to build the engines for a new rocket, the Vulcan. And this isn't just any rocket. It will become the flagship vehicle for the United Launch Alliance (ULA), which delivers most of US national security payloads to space.
ULA's existing workhorse rocket, the Atlas V, has performed flawlessly for more than 60 launches. But it has also become an increasingly controversial launch vehicle because it is powered by Russian RD-180 engines. As US-Russia relations have soured, Congress has demanded that ULA end its dependence on the RD-180.
Blue Origin unquestionably leads in the race to power the new Vulcan rocket under development, but as a traditional aerospace contractor, Aerojet Rocketdyne has well-connected friends in Congress. Blue Origin, with an investment fr om ULA, has privately developed the BE-4 engine, whereas Aerojet just was promised more than $500 million fr om the federal government to design and build its AR1 engine.
Bezos invited us here because he wants the world to know his engine is better, it was developed with private money, and it will be ready several years sooner than the publicly subsidized Aerojet engine. "If ULA has to go with the AR1 engine, that will lead to a significant delay," Bezos said. "That is going to dramatically increase the gap wh ere we have to rely on Russian engines because we started four years ago and there's no rushing it."
There are two main components of a rocket engine: the thrust chamber, wh ere combustion takes place and is thrust backward out of a nozzle, and a large pumping system to take propellants from the fuel tank and bring them up to a high pressure. "In principle, rocket engines are simple, but that's the last place rocket engines are ever simple," Bezos said.

Blue Origin hopes to conduct its first full-scale firing test of the BE-4 engine by year's end. At 550,000 pounds of thrust, the new engine is five times more powerful than the BE-3 engine used in Blue Origin's New Shepard vehicle, which will perform suborbital flights. Like the smaller BE-3 upon which it is modeled, a main feature of the BE-4 is its reusability, and it's being designed to fly a minimum of 25 missions.
Bezos explained his philosophy on how to build a successful reusable engine: "Our strategy is we like to choose a medium-performing version of a high-performance architecture." Here's what that means: The Russian RD-180 engine is a high-performing version of a high performance architecture. It uses the best materials and pushes the performance envelope. It is the Ferrari of engines. But that comes with a cost. When it fires, the RD-180 engines produces extremely high chamber pressures of up to 3,700 psi. By comparison, the BE-4 engine produces a chamber pressure of 1,950 psi.
Developing an elite engine like the RD-180 was a decade-plus project, on par in complexity to the space shuttle's main engines. It required expensive materials. On the plus side, this provides a lower weight engine and a higher thrust-to-weight ratio. But the engine's specific impulse isn't all that much greater than the BE-4, which can be built more easily, and because it doesn't push performance limits can be reused.
This isn't just theory. Blue Origin validated this philosophy in January. Last November, after it successfully flew and landed its New Shepard rocket powered by a single BE-3 engine, it refurbished the vehicle at a cost "in the small tens of thousands of dollars," Bezos said. His technicians never even removed the engine from the vehicle. "We inspected it and said, let's go. It was designed to be reusable from the start." And so it flew again.

Давление в камере BE-4 примерно 132 атм. УИ ненамного меньше, чем у РД-180.

Двигатель имени Старого?

[Apollo13]

Изначально BE-4 имел тягу 180 тс, но по просьбе ULA в 2014 был увеличен до 250 тс.

About two years into the development of the BE-4 engine, in 2014, Blue Origin partnered with ULA, which wanted a larger engine. So Blue Origin scoped the BE-4 up from 400,000 pounds of thrust to 550,000. 

[Seerndv]

Apollo13 пишет:
Like the smaller BE-3 upon which it is modeled, a main feature of the BE-4 is its reusability, and it's being designed to fly a minimum of 25 missions.

- ВЕ-3 послужил моделью? Т.е. переход от водорода к метану, о котором так долго говорили большевики? 

Apollo13 пишет:
When it fires, the RD-180 engines produces extremely high chamber pressures of up to 3,700 psi. By comparison, the BE-4 engine produces a chamber pressure of 1,950 psi.

- вот правильное дефорсирование для Старого - но при обязательном переходе на метан 
Старый должен принести покаяние  и уверовать в Метан! 

Однако, КБХМ по-прежнему впереди - настоящий прототип и ДВВГ 
И почему нельзя взять для "Союз-5" их движок на 70-80т? Тут ещё одна "сбыча мечт" возможна - горячее резервирование. 

[Apollo13]

Seerndv пишет:
- вот правильное дефорсирование для Старого - но при обязательном переходе на метан  
Старый должен принести покаяниеи уверовать в Метан!

Не. Это изощренное издевательство. "Все у вас хорошо только кто на помойку новый бульбулятор керосин выкинул"

[Искандер]

ВЕ-4 правильный разрабатывается - ненапряженный, надежный, малообслуживаемый.  В отличии от обещанных рекордных характеристик Raptor.
Только почему так скромно о кратности использования - не менее 25 раз, если Маск на закопченных керосинках обещает 40?!
Наблюдая за Безосом можно предположить, что он не любит давать голословные обещания.
Думаю что именно у ВО есть шанс первыми сделать по настоящему эффективную многоразовую РН.
Им бы поработать над многоразовостью ещё и второй ступени, двигатель то многоразовый...

[октоген]

Искандер пишет:
 
Только почему так скромно о кратности использования - не менее 25 раз, если Маск на закопченных керосинках обещает 40?!

Вы анекдот про дедушку который жаловался что не может, а сосед может помните? Вот моськ тот самый сосед.

Уже не помню где, но читал про проблемы с огневыми стенками водородных движков многоразового включения. Так вот магическая цифра 25 включений и капут там тоже всплывала.

[Salo]

Искандер пишет:
Только почему так скромно о кратности использования - не менее 25 раз, если Маск на закопченных керосинках обещает 40?!

Маск уже более десяти не обещает.

[salto]

Salo пишет:

Искандер пишет:
Только почему так скромно о кратности использования - не менее 25 раз, если Маск на закопченных керосинках обещает 40?!

Маск уже более десяти не обещает.

Обещать можно многое, но что получится реально, покажет только отработка. РД170 кажется тоже заявлен как многоразовый, ну и что? Может оно так и есть, но сначала нужно отработать технологию спасения ступеней. Вон Маск уже попробовал,  а пока не все получается!

[Seerndv]

Bezos's Space Vision Takes Long View
http://aviationweek.com/space/bezos-s-space-vision-takes-long-view


Blue Origin spaceflight factory is just the beginning for Bezos


Mar 11, 2016 Frank Morring, Jr. Aviation Week & Space Technology


Jeff Bezos, billionaire founder of Amazon and his space-hardware sideline Blue Origin, wants humans to go to space in a big way, turning Earth into a residential planet and moving heavy industry beyond the atmosphere it is polluting.
Meanwhile, though, he sees the company he has spent more than $500 million to get off the ground as a way to lower the cost of entry to space for all kinds of entrepreneurs in the next decade, using suborbital tourist flights to practice more ambitious applications of reusable rocketry and recoup his investment.
"I won a lottery" with Amazon, he says, explaining that he intends to use his wealth to achieve a boyhood dream of "millions of people living and working in space."
Confident that it is well ahead of Aerojet Rocketdyne in the competition to replace the Russian-built RD-180 engine for United Launch Alliance (ULA), Blue Origin is reconfiguring its sprawling factory in this Seattle suburb to manufacture the 550,000-lb.-thrust BE-4 engine at an initial rate of a dozen a year.


Technicians prepare combustion-chamber hardware for hot-fire testing at Blue Origin's 300,000-sq.-ft. factory near Seattle. Credit: Blue Origin



With its New Shepard suborbital reusable space-tourism vehicle preparing for its third flight, and component testing well underway for the BE-4, the secretive operation, housed in a former Boeing manufacturing facility, opened its doors to reporters March 8 for a first public look at its engine and space-tourism hardware.
"It is a change," Bezos says, promising more openness about company activities. "The stuff is finally coming out of this big long pipeline, and it took a long time to get the pipeline filled."

Bezos and Blue Origin President Rob Meyerson displayed major BE-4 components, some of them made using state-of-the-art additive manufacturing technology, that are coming together as the company moves toward the start of full-engine hot-fire testing in the fourth quarter of this year. Regenerative combustor testing is ongoing at the company's ground-test facilities near Van Horn, Texas, and preburner stand-alone testing is scheduled to begin in April. Powerpack testing is due to begin in May, with full-scale components evolved fr om a 400,000-lb.-thrust engine Blue Origin was developing for its own orbital launch vehicle.
Engineers at the Kent, Washington, facility shifted to a more powerful engine when Blue Origin entered a partnership with ULA to develop a replacement for the RD-180, which powers the Atlas V vehicle extensively used in U.S. national security launches.
The launch services provider needed a more capable engine for its planned Vulcan family of launchers to replace its Atlas V and Delta IV evolved expendable launch vehicles. Blue Origin took advantage of its earlier work to gain a head start on the new engine.
Like the RD-180 and Aerojet Rocketdyne's planned AR1 engine, the BE-4 is being developed as an oxygen-rich staged-combustion propulsion system. Because liquefied natural gas (LNG) is less dense than the rocket-grade kerosene that fuels the RD-180 and AR1, the Vulcan will need longer tanks to meet the same performance, but Bezos argues LNG is preferable in the long run because it is less expensive and better lends itself to reusability.

Last month, the U.S. Air Force awarded $161.9 million in contracts to ULA and Aerojet Rocketdyne for work on RD-180 replacements, with more to come in the out-years. ULA plans to downselect to the BE-4 by the end of the year and considers the kerosene-fueled Vulcan with the AR1 a fallback variant in case Blue Origin cannot meet its schedule.
Bezos and Meyerson say the BE-4 remains on track for full-engine testing this year, which will meet ULA's requirement for the downselect. Bezos doesn't consider the AR1 competitive with his engine.
"We're ahead because we started earlier," Bezos says.


The New Shepard assembly hall, with two crew capsules taking shape in the foreground and a silver vertical-takeoff-and- landing vehicle tank at left, near friction stir-welding tools painted blue. Credit: Blue Origin

The Air Force is also backing an Orbital ATK plan to develop a new launch vehicle with a solid-fuel main stage and an upper stage powered by the BE-3 developed for New Shepard. That engine will not be as throtteable as the variant that brings the suborbital tourist vehicle to a tail-down landing and will have a longer nozzle for more capability with an in-space ignition. Meyerson says the company is not ready to disclose specific performance of the upgrade that is designated BE-3U because it is still working out the engineering details with Orbital ATK.
The Kent factory floor is being rearranged to include a production line for the BE-4 adjacent to the BE-3 assembly stands and to accommodate a larger engineering staff that will contribute to expected growth to 1,000 from 600 employees this year.
Blue Origin is buying the most modern numerically controlled machining and additive-manufacturing tools available to meet the initial output of 12 BE-4 engines a year, which are being developed to fly two at a time on the Vulcan. Ultimately, Bezos says he wants Blue Origin to be a competitive supplier of rocket engines to other companies beyond ULA and Orbital ATK, as well as for its own as yet unnamed orbital launch vehicle.
Near the high bay that engineers have dubbed the "BE-4 Highway," workers are assembling two more of the New Shepard crew capsules that underpin Blue Origin's plans to cut the cost of space access by building hardware that can be used over and over.
The company lost its first New Shepard in a high-altitude test flight and has since flown another to space twice and recovered it with minimal turnaround work. Bezos says the BE-3 engine was inspected with borescopes after the first flight but was not removed from the vehicle before it flew again. The only repairs necessary between flights were filling "dings" in the thermal protection system.
The carbon composite crew capsule has six seats arranged around a large solid-fuel escape motor that would fire automatically if health-management sensors detect an impending failure. Each seat will face "the largest windows in space," Bezos says. Passengers will be trained to ride the fully autonomous vehicle through the 100-km (62-mi.) mark, unbuckle and float in the cabin for 3-4 min. and then strap in for a return to Earth slowed by parachutes and cushioned by a retrorocket. The first "test passengers" could fly as early as 2017, and customers paying a to-be-determined ticket price possibly flying in 2018.
While the passengers float back to Earth, the launch vehicle will reenter, stabilized and slowed by air brakes, and return to its West Texas launch site tail down, throttling the BE-3  back to the 20,000-lb.-thrust level.
"I like tail-down landing because it scales so well," says Bezos, comparing the difficulty of balancing a pencil at one end with that of balancing a broomstick. "New Shepard is the shortest vehicle we will ever ride. Vertical landing gets easier with bigger vehicles."
Blue Origin hopes to fly New Shepard frequently, rapidly gathering experience in reusable spaceflight for the larger orbital launch vehicle on the drawing board, Bezos says. That vehicle, in turn, will lead to even larger launchers only in the concept stage at this point.
Ultimately, Bezos says he believes humankind will use routine spaceflight to expand into the Solar System, using the resources there to maintain a civilization that is rapidly outgrowing Earth.
"This is all my view, and I'll be dead before I'm proved wrong, so it's a very safe prediction to make," he says. "But my view is that there will be a great inversion . . . wh ere we realize we shouldn't be doing heavy industry on Earth [because] it's very polluting, and we don't have access to enough energy here to do it. That will invert, and what will happen is we will make the microprocessors in space, and all of the advanced heavy manufacturing can be done in space, and Earth can be zoned residential and light industrial."
Nearer term, Bezos wants to sell reusable rocket engines to launch service providers and use some of them to fly his own reusable, human-rated orbital launch vehicle from a facility he has just started developing at Cape Canaveral. Like New Shepard, its first stage will land tail down, but its upper stage will be expendable at first. Bezos says he probably will leave national security launches to ULA, given that company's experience working with the Pentagon. Otherwise, he says, he intends to compete with ULA, SpaceX and international launch providers as the off-planet economy develops.
"I want a lot of ways to get into space, and I hope all of these companies succeed," Bezos says.