Boga Ha Mapce

[ronatu]

The findings correspond to areas where the U.S. Mars Odyssey spacecraft has detected possible water ice just under the surface.

Some scientists believe microbes might exist in these layers[/size]

no4eMy  He  c/\bIWHo  Bu3ra  pagocTHoro?

[Старый]

А чего визжать? Вдруг они заразные?

[X]

The findings correspond to areas where the U.S. Mars Odyssey spacecraft has detected possible water ice just under the surface.

Some scientists believe microbes might exist in these layers[/size]

no4eMy  He  c/\bIWHo  Bu3ra  pagocTHoro?

A potomu chto fignya vse eto. Formisano vse pereputal, ili emu chto-to ne tak rasskazali.
1. Pro vodyanoy par my znaem uzhe ochen' davno - eshe po MGS TES.
2. Tam gde oni govoryat pro vodu, na samom dele vsego lish 8-10% H20, chto ukazyvaet na svyazannu vodu, no nikak ne na led.

Est' gipotesa chto svyazannoy vody tam mnogo, potomu chto voda is "apehlion cloud belt" (shown in Press Release) condensiruetsa na poverhnosti ii vedet k obogasheniu svyazonnoi vody. No opyat' zhe LED i zamorozhennye microby zdes' sovsem neprichem.

[Agent]

А чего визжать? Вдруг они заразные?

Кстати, в НАСА озаботились после Генезиса.
Сампл ретурн с Марса перепланируют с учетом жесктой посадки на Землю. Не для того чтобы не потерять образцы, а для предотвращения попадания возможных микровов в биосферу.

[ronatu]

A potomu chto fignya vse eto.

Так ли?[/size]

Наблюдение #1:
at 10-15 kilometres above the surface, water vapour is well mixed and uniform in the atmosphere. However, it found that, close to the surface, water vapour is more concentrated in three broad equatorial regions: Arabia Terra, Elysium Planum and Arcadia-Memnonia.
Here, the concentration is two to three times higher than in other regions observed.

Наблюдение #2:
These areas of water vapour concentration also correspond to the areas where NASA's Odyssey spacecraft has observed a water ice layer a few tens of centimetres below the surface, as Dr Vittorio Formisano, PFS principal investigator, reports.

Наблюдение #3:
New analysis of PFS data also confirms that methane is not uniform in the atmosphere, but concentrated in some areas.

Дальнейшее  конечно  спекуляции , НО  базирующиеся  на физике и здравом  смысле.

Кстати  при какой T  и P  вода  может  конденсироваться на Марсе?
[Речь идет о -80...+15С и 4...8 mbar.][/size]

[Зомби. Просто Зомби]

...no4eMy  He  c/\bIWHo  Bu3ra  pagocTHoro?

Все признаки - косвенные
Хотя и многообещающие

[ronatu]

Если на Марсе корреляция между метаном и водой будет подтверждена - это действительно очень интересный факт.
Однако единственный способ получить дальнейшие доказательства - это произвести измерения на месте.

[Bell]

Кстати  при какой T  и P  вода  может  конденсироваться на Марсе?
[Речь идет о -80...+15С и 4...8 mbar.][/size]

Да есть на Маресе такие места, где часто Т >0 и Р до 10 мбар. Таже Долина Маринера (там - точно). Короче - все экваториальные и тропические низменности.

[X]

A potomu chto fignya vse eto.

Так ли?[/size]

Tak ya i govoru

Наблюдение #1:
at 10-15 kilometres above the surface, water vapour is well mixed and uniform in the atmosphere. However, it found that, close to the surface, water vapour is more concentrated in three broad equatorial regions: Arabia Terra, Elysium Planum and Arcadia-Memnonia.
Here, the concentration is two to three times higher than in other regions observed.

This concentration is due to the aphelion cloud belt, well known phenomena. It changes seasaonally. BTW,  the map does not  show Ls (that is season)  on Mars.  Ladno - eto pravilno

Наблюдение #2:
These areas of water vapour concentration also correspond to the areas where NASA's Odyssey spacecraft has observed a water ice layer a few tens of centimetres below the surface, as Dr Vittorio Formisano, PFS principal investigator, reports.

A vot eto kak SOVERSHENNO neverno. Led (60-70% po ob'emu) byl naiden v polyarnyh oblastyah. To chto vidno v Arabia Terra  tyanet TOL'KO na svyazannuu vodu.

Vot, naprimer, karta. Led obnarizhen tol'ko v polyarnyh oblastyah.

Наблюдение #3:
New analysis of PFS data also confirms that methane is not uniform in the atmosphere, but concentrated in some areas.

A gde karta? Karta na site MEX tol'ko pokazyvet water vapor i spectr odnoy is orbit MEX, no nikak ni kartu.

Дальнейшее  конечно  спекуляции , НО  базирующиеся  на физике и здравом  смысле.

Da, no ne na faktah.

V Decabre dolzhen byt' data release - vot togda i posmostrim gde u nih metan.

[X]

V Decabre dolzhen byt' data release - vot togda i posmostrim gde u nih metan.

4To  >k  ycTynai0  3gopoBoMy  ckenTuu,u3My... :wink:

[ronatu]

npeg/\arai0 npo4ecTb eTy o4eHb uHTepecHyi0 cTaTbi0 - runoTe3y , ocHoBHbIe  no/\o>keHuR  koTopou'  R , POHATY , pa3ge/\Ri0  u,e/\ukoM  u no/\HocTbi0:

Brian Handwerk
for National Geographic News
September 22, 2004


Did Mars have an ocean or didn't? Mounting evidence suggests the red planet may have featured oceans or other large bodies of water in the past. But the theory also raises a nagging question.

"We have evidence of huge amounts of water, and a segment of the scientific community has been convinced that Mars had oceans since at least the 1980s," said Victor Baker, a planetary scientist and geoscientist at the University of Arizona in Tucson.

But other scientists disagree. "One reason why has been the failure to detect significant deposits of carbonates that are associated with the presence of an ocean," Baker said.

When standing bodies of water like Earth's oceans evaporate, the water combines with carbon dioxide in the atmosphere to produce carbonic acid. When that acid interacts with minerals, telltale carbonate deposits are left behind.

The Martian atmosphere is rich in carbon dioxide. Yet spectral imaging has shown only small amounts of carbonates scattered across the planet's dusty surface.

So why aren't there more carbonates on Mars if the planet had oceans long ago? [/size]

A recent study by Baker and other researchers, published in tomorrow's issue of the science journal Nature, offers a controversial theory that potentially solves the dilemma.

Acid Ocean

NASA's Mars landers and other orbiting spacecraft have recently identified a tremendous abundance of sulfate salts on the red planet. The presence of the salts on Mars was previously unknown to science.

The discovery led Baker and his colleagues to theorize that Mars once featured an ancient ocean sprinkled with sulphates and iron, making the water there just acidic enough to stop carbonates from precipitating.

"This gets us out of [the missing carbonates] dilemma, though in a way that's controversial," Baker said. "It makes for a kind of strange Mars with an acid ocean. But chemically this makes sense for Mars[/size]."

Mars has been volcanically active throughout its past up to modern times, Baker said. Eruptions and other volcanic activity "release iron and sulfur dioxide that can produce these types of acidic conditions," he said.

Baker and his colleagues say they've only spawned the beginning of an idea that will hopefully lead scientists to a fuller understanding of the red planet's past.

The new study suggests what is physically reasonable. But it does not attempt to test the theory through the long history of Mars. Scrutiny of such a vast geologic record has yet to be attempted.

"Our feeling is that, like all science, this may not be the absolute correct answer. But it can stimulate work that can get us there," Baker said. "It's consistent with the data ... [and implies] that we're at least following the right path."

The theory lends its controversial weight to gathering evidence that suggests ancient oceans existed on Mars. Oceans are considered a key criteria for past life on Mars.

NASA's Mars exploration rover Opportunity has identified perhaps the best evidence for water on the red planet from its landing zone in the Meridiani Planum, a flat area near the equator.

Rocks on that plain yielded clues of texture, mineral composition, and chemistry that strongly suggest that the geologic matter was deposited in flowing, salty water.

"The plains themselves extend over an area about the size of Oklahoma," said Joy Crisp, a Mars Exploration Rover Mission scientist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California.

"We have seen roughly 30 feet [10 meters] of thickness of these [deposited] layers, laid down one after the other," she said. "So we're getting a sense that this body of water was around for some time."

Data collected in orbit suggest the sediment stack was some 1,650 feet (500 meters) thick and covered an area the size of Northern Europe's Baltic Sea.

Had it existed, might such a vast, ancient sea once have teemed with life? No one knows for sure. But the authors of the new study suggest that the acidic nature of the Martian ocean they say existed might have been suitable for life.

Writing in their study, the researchers stated: "In fact, if biological inhabitation of early Mars is considered plausible, moderate acidic oceans represent the closest terrestrial analogue for a biogenic environment, similar to that where life originated on ... Earth."




the colorful area inside the curving black (on top) line to be the most probable extent of ancient Martian oceans.


If the seas of Mars were moderately acidic -- in scientific terms, a pH under 6 instead of the pH of 8 common to terrestrial oceans -- then carbonates could not have formed, says Alberto Fairen of the Universidad Autonoma de Madrid, in Spain.[/size]

[sol]

4.6 мм.рт.ст. (если не ошибаюсь) - тройная точка воды. Это означает, что при более низких давлениях вода в жидкой фазе невозможна, при более высоких - смотря при какой температуре. Помнится - как раз при марсианских температурах может быть жидкой...
а мест где на Марсе давление выше 4.6 мм.рт.ст. полно
фазовую диаграмму воды смотрите на http://www.chem.msu.su/rus/teaching/fasa/2.html
так что лужицы воды на Марсе ФИЗИЧЕСКИ возможны

[sol]

Прошу прощения - сообщение от меня выше в качестве цитаты РОНАТУ приведено МОЁ сообщение - случайно при использовании цитаты накрапал в теле цитаты свой текст - вот и вышло типа от РОНАТУ.
Прошу прощения у Ронату
Сол

[iaia]

Непосредственно вода, как продукт вулканических эксгаляций, безусловно кислая... очень кислая... Вопрос в буфере, в данном случае буфер - базальты. Результат - слабо-кислый океан, соли - сульфаты и хлориды кальция, магния и железа.

[V.B.]

Заметим, что в составе "спецглины" (прошу извинить за термин, но он уже здесь утвердился благодаря Старому) карбонаты не упомянуты.

А спектрометры Оппортуниста "берут" кислород и углерод?

APXS должен по идее.

[X]

Brian Derkowski, left, Mars Drill Project engineer, and Jeffrey A. George, project manager, test drill setup procedures at Johnson Space Center's Mars Yard, an area designed to resemble in some way the red planet's surface. Credit: JSC/NASA

Source:  http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-robot-04e.html

[X]

Brian Derkowski, left, Mars Drill Project engineer, and Jeffrey A. George, project manager, test drill setup procedures at Johnson Space Center's Mars Yard, an area designed to resemble in some way the red planet's surface. Credit: JSC/NASA

Source:  http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-robot-04e.html

Mars Drill Will Seek Knowledge And Resources[/size]

[ronatu]

A BOT U PA3YMHOE  O6'bRCHEHUE:[/size]


Martian Obliquity Keeps Vast Glacial Cycles Moving


The ice evolution on Mars over a caracteristic obliquity cycle: the angle between the white arrows and the dotted line denotes the Martian obliquity. At high obliquity, the northern cap becomes unstable and looses a few centimeters of ice each year. This ice is then deposited in equatorial zones. When the obliquity decreases, ice comes back at high latitudes. When the equatorial reservoir disappears, high-latitude ice deposits become unstable too. A fraction sublimates and lays out again towards the poles which contributes to the creation of Martian polar caps, while an other fraction is buried under a protecting dust lag (ASD/IMCCE-CNRS, adapted from Jim Head/Brown University and NASA/JPL) [/size]


Paris, France (SPX) Oct 28, 2004

Since the arrival of Mars Global Surveyor and more recently Mars Odyssey spacecrafts, a range of facts has revealed the existence of frozen water ice in the top meters of high latitudes near-surface (~60 deg - 90 deg) of both martian hemispheres. However, its origin was still unexplained.
Climatic simulations directed by astronomers from Paris Observatory and researchers from IPSL Planetology Departement (Paris VI) and published in the journal "Nature", show that this ice may come from an ancient reservoir of equatorial ice created during high obliquity episodes on Mars but which became unstable during the more recent episodes of low obliquity. This study has permitted to illustrate the existence of glacial cycles on Mars even more severe than on Earth.

Even if the presence of ice caps has been observed on the Mars poles for more than three centuries, the arrival of Mars Global Surveyor and Mars Odyssey spacecrafts in 1996 and 2001 has permitted to show that important quantities of ice (more than 70% of volume) had undoubtedly also been present in the top two meters of martian high latitudes (Figure 1).

It seemed difficult to explain the existence of such a quantity of ice so nearby the surface: more than half a milimeter of water frost is currently laying down during autumn and winter at high latitudes. Nevertheless, this ice cap sublimates completely at the end of spring.

This ice was proposed to be resulted from a slow diffusion of water between the Martian regolith and the atmosphere but the in situ measurements of porosity from Viking spacecrafts have shown that the regolith can not contain any ice with such a concentration. The study directed by the researchers from Paris Observatory and IPSL suggests that the solution may come from astronomical forcing of Martian climates.

For almost thirty years, sedimentary and ice cores have confirmed that the variations of the insolation received on the Earth's surface resulting from slow changes of the orbit and the Earth's obliquity had given rise to glacial/interglacial periods.

However, the martian obliquity variations are chaotic and much more significant than on Earth. The Martian obliquity has indeed varied between 25 deg and 45 deg during the 5-10 Ma time intervall and between ~15 deg and 35 deg during the last 5 Ma, with a "periodicity" close to 120 000 years.

A climatic 3-dimensional model of General Martian Circulation developed by the team of FranГois Forget (IPSL, Paris VI) and simulating faithfully the current seasonal cycle of water has been used to determine the path of Martian ice through these large variations.

These simulations have brought the intense latitudinal redistribution of Martian ice to light. When the obliquity overpasses 35 deg (compared to the current average value which is of ~25.19 deg), the summer insolation becomes too strong to maintain the stability of the current Northern cap which provokes a quick atmospheric transfer of ice towards the equatorial high topography region of Tharsis (Arsia, Pavonis, Ascraeus et Olympus Montes).

Remarkably, these summits sides present morphological traces which may be the result of the recent presence of glaciers. When the obliquity is below the current value, the equatorial ice becomes unstable and is carried not only to the polar zones but also to the high latitudes of the both hemispheres. The latitudinal distribution of stable ice obtained is then very close to the Mars Odyssey observations, illustrating a severe martian ice age.

How this ice can be preserved? As it is currently observed on Mars, ice is expected to be co-deposited with dust. When ice begins to sublimates, a dust lag is forming and prevents some ice from complete sublimation at every cycle so as to permit a "regular" forming of sedimentary meters-thick and ice-rich layers. These deposits are visible at high latitudes and more spectacularly in the polar caps.

The ice observed by Mars Odyssey would also be the mark of an ancient Martian glacial age (probably inferior to 5 Ma), covered nowadays with a thin cover of dry layer. If this is true, there must be some ice not only on the top meters but on hundreds of meters depth. The radars MARSIS and SHARAD respectively aboard Mars Express (in progress) and Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter which is forseen to be launched in 2005 will probably brought additional constraints on these underground reservoirs.

Recent ice-rich deposits formed at high latitude on Mars by sublimation of unstable equatorial ice during low obliquity Levrard, B., Forget, F., Montmessin, F. and Laskar, J., Nature, 28 octobre 2004. Long term evolution and chaotic diffusion of the insolation quantities of Mars. Laskar, J., Correia, A., Gastineau, M., Joutel, F., Levrard, B., Robutel, P.: 2004, Icarus, 170, 343-364.

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-water-science-04l.html

[ronatu]

 
Hа Марсе обнаружили замерзшее море[/size]
 
Непосредственно под поверхностью Марса находится большое замерзшее море.

Как сообщила группа европейских специалистов, такие выводы были сделаны на основе фотографий региона Elysium[/size], расположенного возле экватора.

По мнению ученых, около пяти миллионов лет назад этот регион площадью 800 на 900 км был затоплен, после чего вода замерзла. Со временем лед покрыли отложения.

«Это район, где существует множество речных форм (рельефа), однако ранее еще никто не видел моря, и конечно, никто никогда не видел ранее паковый лед», - сказал специалист Лондонского университетского колледжа Ян-Питер Мюллер.

Ранее было известно о больших объемах льда на полюсах Марса, однако это первое открытие замерзшего моря на низких широтах.





http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4285119.stm


BTW The Marsis will soon deploy its instrument, which has been designed to find the planet's subterranean permafrost.

However, the way the instrument is set up means it may not be able to see the Elysium sea because it is simply too near the surface.

Only if the ice mass extends down many tens of metres will it be able to detect the sea-bottom boundary.

[X]

B o6w,eM HeT Hukakux koMmeHTapueB.

3Ha4uT Boga Ha Mapce Hy>kHa 6bI/\a To/\bko CTAPOMY ga u To ec/\u ero npuopuTeT npu3Hai0T.... :wink:

A Tak ropu oHo Bce xo/\ogHbIM orHeM... :wink: