Холивар Raptor vs РД0164, Мюллер vs Рачук

[Seerndv]

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34197.msg1491209#msg1491209
                               Re: SpaceX advances drive for Mars rocket via Raptor power                                                        
« Reply #1252 on: 02/13/2016 06:28 AM »
                                                     
                      
                         
From the budget request discussion in the politics section.


Quote

Quote from: Steven Pietrobon on Today at 05:32 AM

    SpaceX are planning to test their Raptor engine in the 4th quarter this year at Stennis Space Center stand E-1 C3. Testing will be going on for a year. p532

So Raptor engine tests starting this year. Must say I am not surprised but good to see.
                      
                   
                         « Last Edit: 02/13/2016 06:29 AM by guckyfan »                      
                                               

- хм ... ого!

[Apollo13]

Не факт что это двигатель в сборе, а не компоненты, но если так то впечатляет.

[silentpom]

ну вроде газогенератор уже тестировали, так что наверное речь идет о двигателе

[Seerndv]

Щаз придёт Жоржи и расскажет, что Безос с Маском разорятся, их выгонят, а двигателей не будет  

[Apollo13]

Seerndv пишет:
Щаз придёт Жоржи и расскажет, что Безос с Маском разорятся, их выгонят, а двигателей не будет  

И все клиенты уйдут на ангару!

[Старый]

Seerndv пишет:
Щаз придёт Жоржи и расскажет, что Безос с Маском разорятся, их выгонят, а двигателей не будет  

Их выгонят из Флориды.

[Apollo13]

Старый пишет:

Seerndv пишет:
Щаз придёт Жоржи и расскажет, что Безос с Маском разорятся, их выгонят, а двигателей не будет    

Их выгонят из Флориды.

На Аляску! Во-первых чтобы кислород не перегревался, а во-вторых чтобы уравнять с Ангарой широту, потому что из Флориды неспортивно

[Старый]

Apollo13 пишет: а во-вторых чтобы уравнять с Ангарой широту, потому что из Флориды неспортивно  

О! Вот они - золотые слова!

[Seerndv]

Salo пишет:

On Jan. 13 the service announced the first of the awards and said it would invest at least $46.9 million and perhaps as much as $180 million, to develop three technologies for a new rocket from Orbital ATK. In addition, SpaceX received at least $33.6 million, and perhaps as much as $61 million, to continue development of its reusable methane-fueled Raptor engine.

[Seerndv]

Безос, прям апологет МКС и перехода от малого к большому,  видно теория тренировки на кошках у него имела подтверждение в жизненной практике :

Astronaut Prime: Here's how Jeff Bezos plans to remake spaceflight
by Eric Berger - Apr 5, 2016 6:16pm GST
                     Some are not impressed with Blue Origin's small beginning, but it's just a first step.                            
 
The New Shepard rocket made its third flight on Saturday fr om West Texas.
Blue Origin
After Blue Origin completed the third flight of its New Shepard launch system on Saturday, the spaceflight community applauded the effort. And on Sunday, after video emerged showing the dramatic firing of its engines just before the rocket would have struck the ground, the response was again approbation. This third test in a little more than four months demonstrated that Blue Origin has continued to progress toward its goal of launch, land, and repeat—the holy grail of low-cost spaceflight.
But among the cheers were also a few mutterings. What does it matter if all Jeff Bezos is going to do is take rich people on joy rides, some said. Or, if researchers want to do suborbital experiments, can't they get those done in conventional aircraft flying parabolas? Others have complained that New Shepard's propulsion module is relatively small and has only a single engine, and flying to suborbital space requires a fraction of the energy that getting into orbit does. In short, some critics say Bezos is just dabbling at the edges of space, not doing the hard stuff of going all the way.
This may all be true, but it misses the point. Much like Mercury represented America's first tentative steps into outer space, so does New Shepard represent only a beginning for the company. New Shepard, after all, is named after Alan Shepard, the first American in space who rode inside a Mercury capsule. It may or may not succeed, but Blue Origin aspires to be much more. It's trying to build a scalable, reusable architecture from the ground up, and that takes time.
Reusability is the thing
Earlier this year, Ars visited Blue Origin's rocket factory, and we had a chance to discuss the company's ambitions with Bezos on Blue Origin's factory floor. Bezos explained that he has built his company, from the beginning, around lowering the cost of access to space. Initially, he hoped to find a better way than chemical rockets to blast people off the surface of the Earth, but as yet no technology exists. And so Blue Origin has focused on making chemical rockets cost as little as possible, and that means reusing them.
"Reusability will change everything," Bezos explained. "Right now, the things you do in space have to be incredibly important, and because space access is so expensive, if you can do it another way, you will. That's why you get very few launches. That changes if you can dramatically lower the cost of access, and the only way to do that is reusability."
In this, Bezos is both a competitor and kindred spirit with Elon Musk, whose SpaceX had a much higher profile during the last decade as it has aggressively competed with rocket companies around the world for satellite business and NASA contracts. Musk is also investing heavily in reusable rocket technology. In one sense Musk is well ahead because he has landed a much larger rocket after it delivered a payload to orbit, a more dynamically challenging energy regime to return from. But Bezos is ahead in another important step, demonstrating the ability to reuse a flown rocket in a matter of weeks, as he did most recently with Saturday's launch.
When it comes to launching rockets, the hardware drives costs, not propellants. Liquid oxygen costs about 10 cents a pound. If you have a big launch vehicle with 1 million pounds of liquid oxygen propellant, that's $100,000. Liquid hydrogen costs a bit more, but still, more than 90 percent of a launch costs are in the hardware.
Nevertheless, the dot-com billionaires have faced skeptics when it comes to reusable rockets. NASA, officially at least, isn't interested. When Congress told the agency to build the massive Space Launch System in 2011, it directed NASA to power that expendable rocket with space shuttle main engines. In other words, NASA was told to throw away expensive, reusable engines after a single flight. Other government-backed launch ventures, including the French Arianespace and Russian Roscomos programs, have likewise been reticent to embrace reusable rockets.
Normally in spaceflight, government is on the bleeding edge of technology pushing the limits. For example, NASA says it is leaving transport to low-Earth orbit to private companies so that it can focus on deep space exploration. But that does not seem to be the case with reusable rockets, wh ere smaller, private companies are pushing the technology forward.
"I think it's partly because a lot of people still perceive it as a very risky approach," Bezos said of the concept. "I think it's good that the private enterprise is stepping in, and I think we're going to see the rewards of that in the next 10 to 15 years."
Some people have also questioned whether it's safe to reuse rockets, but Bezos thinks that perception will flip 180 degrees. "That is an argument that's been made, but I have a different opinion," he said. "I would much rather fly in a used 787 than on that 787's first flight. Let somebody else take that first flight. Look, the fact that you just flew it yesterday means that it's probably really good to fly right now. And that's going to be true of rocket vehicles, too. In the future, because of reusability, nobody with a really expensive satellite is going to want to put it on an unused rocket. They're going to decide that's too risky. Now that will take a while, but that's what's going to happen."
It must scale
Blue Origin has also been designed with scale in mind, ultimately aiming to bring thousands if not millions of people into space. That's why the company opted to go with a propulsive vertical landing system. Some aerospace engineers like wings, such those used by the space shuttle, which allowed the vehicle to glide back to the Earth through the atmosphere. Other designers like parachutes. None of these are bad, Bezos said.
"The reason I like vertical landing is because it scales so well," he explained. "New Shepard is about 80 feet tall. It's the shortest vehicle we will ever make. It gets easier to land the vehicles the bigger they get. It's the inverted pendulum problem. It's easier to balance bigger things. I like those architectures. Parachutes have the opposite problem; as things get bigger, it's very difficult. You can't build a parachute 1,000 feet in diameter. Even wings, they scale pretty well to a certain size, but they end up being a lot of dead weight to carry."
Bezos and Blue Origin are not yet ready to disclose the specifics of their orbital rocket, which for now is called "Very Big Brother." He hopes to release those details later this year. However, we can glean some insight from the engines. New Shepard is powered by a single BE-3 engine, which has 110,000 pounds of thrust (lbf). This is less that the 170,000lbf of a single upgraded Merlin engine, nine of which power SpaceX's Falcon 9 rocket to orbit.
However, Blue Origin is well into the design of its BE-4 engine, and it plans to begin full engine testing by the end of this year. The BE-4 engine will produce a thrust of 550,000lbf, making it more than three times as powerful as the Merlin engine and more powerful even than one of the space shuttle's main engines. It is not clear whether the company's planned orbital vehicle will be powered by one, two, or more BE-4 engines.
None of this is to say Blue Origin will succeed, of course, But it has already scaled from a small, 31,000lbf BE-2 engine to the BE-3. And it's already well on its way to mastering the landing of its New Shepard propulsion module, which in theory should scale to a larger orbital vehicle. Initially that technology will launch satellites, but Bezos said it will be rated for human travel, as well. And the Very Big Brother, too, is just a stepping stone.
"Our first orbital vehicle will not be our last, and it will be the smallest orbital vehicle we will ever build," Bezos said. And to make it all affordable, says the man who has upended online retailing with Amazon.com, rockets must launch, land, and then fly again. When he's asked about plans by government agencies and others to build large, expendable rockets, Bezos seems unable to understand that kind of business practice in the 21st century.
"What I know you cannot afford is throwing the hardware away," he said. "Hardware is so expensive. Look around at the precision you see here. The turbopumps with beautifully machined propellers. It's just a tragedy to throw all of that away. You can never make a step function change in cost if you're throwing the hardware away."

[Salo]

Quick update on BE-4 progress (self.BlueOrigin)

We're making multiple copies of the BE-4 to take us through our development campaign, along with a healthy amount of hardware spares to mitigate schedule and technical risks encountered along the way - - a "hardware rich" approach to development. To maintain a fast pace, we've elected over the past years to invest heavily in key machines, tooling and people for the production of BE-4 so we can control critical processes in-house.
Beginning to slot one of our nozzles

Completion of slotting of a main combustion chamber

Main propellant valve machining

Preparing inspected GOx dome casting for machining

We've also started testing the BE-4 preburner in our recently commissioned pressure-fed test cell. We're developing the transient start sequence for the preburner, and we're making good progress.
Hot firing a 14" diameter preburner

We'll continue to keep you posted on our progress as this engine comes together.
Gradatim Ferociter!
Jeff Bezos

[Salo]

Петрович в штаты перебрался?

[Leonar]

Salo пишет:
Петрович в штаты перебрался?

Правильная мысля найдет применение..
Браун,Тесла, Сикорский(с)
:evil:

[Leonar]

кстати, медная кс?

[silentpom]

а сопло не маловато для 240 тонн?

[Salo]

Leonar пишет:
кстати, медная кс?

Бронзовая.

[Alex_II]

silentpom пишет:
а сопло не маловато для 240 тонн?

Так то не всё сопло наверное... А критика вроде нормальная...

[silentpom]

там выше фотка

[Alex_II]

silentpom пишет:
там выше фотка

Ага, увидел. Да не, нормальное сопло. Примерно тех же размеров что и у 191го...

[Salo]

Jeff Foust ‏@jeff_foust  4 мин.4 минуты назад  
Meyerson: will be looking for "full-rate" production facility for BE-4 in the next year; kicking off site search soon. #NewSpace16
 
  Jeff Foust ‏@jeff_foust  6 мин.6 минут назад  
Meyerson talks about benefits of their internship program, like pairing interns with experienced workers (also, free housing).#NewSpace16
 
  Jeff Foust ‏@jeff_foust  9 мин.9 минут назад  
Meyerson: >550 engine tests at our West Texas site in 2015 alone, both BE-3 and BE-4. #NewSpace16
 
  Jeff Foust ‏@jeff_foust  13 мин.13 минут назад  
Meyerson: Blue Origin has become the engine supplier of choice for US launch companies (ULA and BE-4, Orbital ATK and BE-3U) #NewSpace16
 
  Jeff Foust ‏@jeff_foust  14 мин.14 минут назад
Meyerson: "well over halfway" through development of BE-4 engine. Full scale testing beginning later this year. #NewSpace16