ГИРД

[DonPMitchell]

I have written the first of some pages on the history of early Soviet rocketry.  Let me know if you have comments.

http://www.mentallandscape.com/G_GIRD.htm

[avmich]

"It would be considered a hybrid today, rather than a pure liquid-fuel engine, since it ran on compressed air and liquid benzine (petroleum ether)."

Is "hybrid" the correct term here?

[DonPMitchell]

"It would be considered a hybrid today, rather than a pure liquid-fuel engine, since it ran on compressed air and liquid benzine (petroleum ether)."

Is "hybrid" the correct term here?

Well usually hybrid means solid + liquid.  Some of the books I looked at called the gas + liquid a hybrid also.

[Filas]

Very well for the begining.
Just one small mistake in Glusko's name. He is Valentin, not Valantin. (like Saint Valentin).
Are you going to write about GIRD only? What about RNII and GDL?
If you can read any Russian we will provide you with some useful links and books about the subject. If not, we can support you with only some brief information (It is not easy to translate a whole book, is it?).
Good luck.

[DonPMitchell]

Very well for the begining.
Just one small mistake in Glusko's name. He is Valentin, not Valantin. (like Saint Valentin).
Are you going to write about GIRD only? What about RNII and GDL?
If you can read any Russian we will provide you with some useful links and books about the subject. If not, we can support you with only some brief information (It is not easy to translate a whole book, is it?).
Good luck.

Many thanks.  I "read" Russian with ABBY Finereader and SYSTRAN.  I have scanned and translated a few whole books.  Maybe it would be easier if I just learned to read Russian well.  :-)

I am researching for my book on "The Soviet Exploration of Venus", but I wanted to make some web pages to hold the extra information.  I will write some more web pages about rocket engines and the work of Glushko, Dushkin, and Isaev.

Suggestions of books would be very helpful.  I have some major books -- Keldysh and Raushenbakh's books on Korolev, the big Energiya books, Glushko's book.  I have not found a copy of Isaev's book yet.  But when I see a reference like "Протоколы испытаний отдельных узлов по ракете 07, 1933 г. — Арх. АН СССР", I have no way to find that in Seattle!

I very good book is, G.M. Salakhutdinov, "Razvitne Metodov Teplozashchity Zhidkostnykh Raketnykh Dvigatelei".  I have translated big parts of that into English.

Finding photographs is hard.  I do not have a photograph of Korolev's 06/I winged missile, I have only seen later 216 and 212 models.  I know very little about the GIRD-07 rocket.  Also very little about the GIRD-03 rocket engine, which perhaps was never built.

In post-war work, I know very little about experiments like KS-50, that led to the RD-107.

[Filas]

Here the book about rocket engines of GDL, RNII.
http://epizodsspace.testpilot.ru/bibl/glushko/rak-dv/text/obl.htm
Look other electronic books in the library
http://epizodsspace.testpilot.ru/bibl/biblioteka.htm

It is better to understand Russian yourself, then using SYSTRAN or similar progs. Try to use SYSTRAN to translate a text from English to Russian and  then to English again. You will have a lot of fun.

But when I see a reference like "Протоколы испытаний отдельных узлов по ракете 07, 1933 г. — Арх. АН СССР", I have no way to find that in Seattle!

In Seattle! I'm not sure that it is possible to find it ever in Saint Petersburg! Nevertheless I'll try.

[DonPMitchell]

It is better to understand Russian yourself, then using SYSTRAN or similar progs. Try to use SYSTRAN to translate a text from English to Russian and  then to English again. You will have a lot of fun.

Yes, I am afraid to use SYSTRAN to write in Russian here.  If I do, I turn it back into English just to make sure I am not saying something funny.

The epizodsspace site is great!  I ran his scans of Chertok's books through SYSTRAN a few years ago.  Now the first volume of Cherkto is published in English, thanks to Asif Siddiqi.

Have you seen the articles by Olaf Przybilski?  I think he is an extreme nationalist, who wants to prove that all rocketry ideas are German.  It would good to find more accurate information about what ideas Isaev or Glushko might have gotten from the Walter engines or other German work.  And what did the Germans get from Russia?  Glushko's books and reports were all found in the library where the V-2 was designed.  So it is complex.

[Dio]

There is none about interesting and so far little known Dushkin late works on RDD (long range missile) 604 in the article. It was tested in the first half of 1941 and was probably largest soviet rocket at the moment. Also little known about results of these tests except that range about 20 km was reached. Photo of 604 mistle (of very poor quality) is exposed in Moscow Politechnic museum.
I am interested in this device for a long time, but know no details except the stated above.

http://www.astronautix.com/engines/krd604.htm

[DonPMitchell]

There is none about interesting and so far little known Dushkin late works on RDD (long range missile) 604 in the article. It was tested in the first half of 1941 and was probably largest soviet rocket at the moment. Also little known about results of these tests except that range about 20 km was reached. Photo of 604 mistle (of very poor quality) is exposed in Moscow Politechnic museum.
I am interested in this device for a long time, but know no details except the stated above.

http://www.astronautix.com/engines/krd604.htm

Is the KRD-604 engine the same object as the M-17 engine?  I have seen photos of the 604 rocket, and a good diagram of the M-17 engine.

The KRD-604 engine was interesting.  The combustions chamber was filled with solid rocket fuel.  It burned as a solid-fuel rocket, and when the nitro-cellulose fuel was all used, then liquid fuel entered the chamber, and it began to function as a ZhRD.

[avmich]

In post-war work, I know very little about experiments like KS-50, that led to the RD-107.

I've heard about these works in Energomash museum. You can try to contact them. Energomash cares a lot about their history, at least in that history which shows them in a good light. At least I've got that impression :) .

KS-50 is mentioned in NK 8/2005, but you undoubtfully know that.

[DonPMitchell]

KS-50 is mentioned in NK 8/2005, but you undoubtfully know that.

Thank-you, I will try to find that article.  I can only see what is in the on-line articles of NK.  I should subscribe to the magazine.  There is a small photo of the KS-50 on Anatoly Zak's website: http://www.russianspaceweb.com/a4_team_moscow.html

Is there a museum with the engines of Dushkin on display?

[Johannes]

First tested in November of 1933, the ORM-50 predated the regeneratively cooled engines tested by Eugene S

[DonPMitchell]

My remark is not especially important, but "Eugen" is the German form of "Eugene", and the pronunciation is completely different. It is spoken like "oigan" maybe.

Thanks, I will fix that.

A bigger problem is conversion of Russian words into English letters.  There are many systems, and special exceptions for familiar names.  On my Soviet Exploration of Venus website, I use a strict standard, the Library of Congress system, but my Russian friends all do not like it (for example "Iurii" instead of "Yuri").  Using Russian letters is complicated by the many standards of encoding -- ISO, Windows, KOI8 -- which to use?

[foogoo]

Using Russian letters is complicated by the many standards of encoding -- ISO, Windows, KOI8 -- which to use?

The prionitised list of encoding is: UNICODE UTF8, Windows, KOI8, ISO.

[DonPMitchell]

Here is a problem with many English translations, even professional journals.  In American English, we have these words:

benzine - petroleum ether, C5H12 + C6H14 + C7H16

gasoline - automobile fuel, mostly octane C8H18

In Russian papers about the engines of Tsander and Tikhonravov and others, you have worlds like: бензиновая,  жидком бензино-кислородном топливе, бензин, бензина в канифоли, жидкого кислорода и бензина, бензиновый бак, бензине.

In English translations, I find "benzine", and sometimes "gasoline".  Translators (both computer and human)  are confused.  Maybe Russian automobile fuel was something between benzine and gasoline?  What is accurate description of the chemical fuel used by GIRD rockets?

[avmich]

Don, that's the way of life. Specific rocket related (or other) terms are really hard to understand for the first time, so one have to be patient.

The questions you've asked should likely be addressed to chemists - preferably rocket chemists (you've read the "Ignition!" by John Clark? The guys of his kind). In Russia "benzin" means automotive fuel, but it's just an approximation for you, as you're looking for more exact meanings. The chemical formulas should be somewhat different - there are different standards for petroleum-related products, but anyway they aren't some pure substances, but mixes.

[DonPMitchell]

Don, that's the way of life. Specific rocket related (or other) terms are really hard to understand for the first time, so one have to be patient.

The questions you've asked should likely be addressed to chemists - preferably rocket chemists (you've read the "Ignition!" by John Clark? The guys of his kind). In Russia "benzin" means automotive fuel, but it's just an approximation for you, as you're looking for more exact meanings. The chemical formulas should be somewhat different - there are different standards for petroleum-related products, but anyway they aren't some pure substances, but mixes.

Yes, commercial petroleum products are not pure chemicals.  I am pretty sure that the Russian word "benzin" should always be translated to "gasolene".

But is it possible that Tsander is talking about petroleum ether (эфир петролеума), and not about automobile fuel?

[foogoo]

There is state standard for automobile 'бензин' - http://www.nge.ru/g_2084-77.htm

There is a good and most appropriate online dictionary of contemporary russian and am. english:
http://lingvo.yandex.ru/en?text=%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%BD&st_translate=1


According to wiki benzine->Petroleum ether->петролейный эфир
http://lingvo.yandex.ru/en?text=petroleum-ether&lang=en&search_type=lingvo&st_translate=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzine

[DonPMitchell]

So, газолин and бензин mean the same thing in Russian, yes?

I have another question.  Does anyone know if this book is online anywhere?  Or available to buy as a book?

Исаев A.M. Первые шаги к космическим двигателям. М.: Машиностроение, 1979.

[avmich]

Газолин is a word very rarely used in today's Russia.

Yes, бензин is most closely translated as gasoline now.