Tronador II - аргентинский громовержец

[Salo]

PS: И, конечно, никуда это чуда в ближайшее десятилетие не улетит.

Аргентинцы более оптимистичны:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26645.msg802080#msg802080

Not even close. We'll be lucky if it flies a 100kg demo to LEO in five years. The Army's Orbit has higher chances.

А что такое Army's Orbit?

[hecata]

PS: И, конечно, никуда это чуда в ближайшее десятилетие не улетит.

А это, собственно, почему?

А надо решить очень много проблем - разделение, командные приборы, запуск в невесомости, отработать несколько двигателей, построить СК. 5 лет потребовалось, что бы запустить более простой Falcon-1 в США, где можно найти специалистов, имеющих опыт в решении вышеперечисленных проблем на практике.  Опять же, опыт соседней Бразилии тоже намекает.

[Salo]

PS: И, конечно, никуда это чуда в ближайшее десятилетие не улетит.

Аргентинцы более оптимистичны:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26645.msg802080#msg802080

Not even close. We'll be lucky if it flies a 100kg demo to LEO in five years. The Army's Orbit has higher chances.

А что такое Army's Orbit?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26645.msg802335#msg802335

Argentina has two orbital LV projects. One is the hypergolic project form the civil space agency, CONAE, commonly known as the TRONADOR Project, or more correctly ISCUL (Inyector Satelital de Cargas Utiles y Livianas, or Satellite Injector of Useful and Light Payloads) if you can read Spanish I would recommend this thread. Since it's made by a civil agency, and after the Condor II issues, they are very paranoic not to have anything to do with military applications. They went as far as not accepting anybody who had any experience from the Condor. Which is a shame since it had an immature GNC mostly develop. They have a small budget, and the they spent quite a long time developing a 4tnf thrust pathfinding engine, they had to do with a range that's only good for polar orbits (the only available place for normal orbits didn't pass the environmental impact), but they actually flew the guidance computers on Brazilian sounding rockets. Apparently those problems are behind, but the project is too ambitious for the budget and the political instability and economic realities will make it very difficult to actually launch an orbital flight. They did launched two TRONADOR rockets, but were mostly pathfinders and less than a good sounding rocket.
The second project is from the Ministry of Defense, it has a project to develop a "big" solid rocket engine family. The original project was called GRADICOM. Once the single stage GRADICOM was successfully demonstrated, the two stages GRADICOM II was developed. You can read about it in my post. But basically it was a 1ton rocket with dual HTPB solid cores, with no thrust vectoring nor active surfaces, but it demonstrated successfully staging, and telemetry. The next version will be called Orbit, and will have active control. With any luck, it will launch next year. According to my calculations, if they use four cores as a first stage, they will reach orbital heights (400km), I don't think they will reach orbital speeds, but will probably demonstrate their GNC. They do have the experience from the Condor, and they want to use the single engine version for an artillery piece upto 400km, and with a multiple stage version (I calculate at least four) that could put small satellites on LEO. If you can read Spanish you can find more in this thread.

[Salo]

Tronador I (экспериментальный прототип с высотой полёта 20 км):

http://www.conae.gov.ar/eng/accesoalespacio/tronador.html

http://www.rocket.com.ar/biblioteca...to_Tronador.pdf

http://www.grupoartax.com.ar/CA_Tronador.html


Видео:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQGR...feature=related

[Salo]

http://www.zonamilitar.com.ar/foros/threads/proyecto-tronador-cohete-espacial.14493/page-36

[hecata]

Tronador I - вытесниловка на анилине/азотной кислоте с УИ 220, и расходом что-нибудь около 1,5 кг/с Данные противоречивы, полный импульс указан в 550 кг*с, время работы 10 секунд (тяга 55 кгс?), но ускорение в конце работы 9 G, а полная масса 60 кг. У меня сошлось, что полный импульс ~3800 кг*c, тяга соответственно ~380 кгс, расход ~1,7 кг/с.

Между  двигателем на 400 кгс на азотке/анилине и 30 тонным на АТ/ММГ лежат как минимум 5-6 лет плотной работы. Конечно, если эта работа началась в 2007-2008 году - то да, таки есть шанс успеть запустить в 2014 году в первый полет Тронадор II. Однако тогда где-то должны быть победные реляции о промежуточных двигателях, на, скажем, 5 тонн тяги и правильную топливную пару.

Кроме того, для Тронадора II должна разрабатываться и испытываться СУ, и это не менее сложная задача, чем ДУ.

Так же, мне представляется сложным переход по масштабу, если тронадор I можно сделать силами десятка специалистов и 20 работников, то для орбитальной ракеты нужно на порядок больше - где они вдруг возьмуться в аргентине? Может просто не хватит людей разрабатывать сразу 4 ступени, несколько ДУ, СУ, СК.

Отсюда пессимизм по срокам.

[Salo]

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26645.msg812843#msg812843

Tronador II

Acording to this article. The rocket will be assembled in the Punta India Base, by the National University of La Plata, by the middle of 2012. The idea is to launch by 2013 from the Belgrano Naval Base (since they have the necessary infrastructure). They've leased a hangar from the Ministry of Defense, to do the initial system testings. they are working on the structural parts, and will receive, test, accept and integrate the engines and electronics from the other developers.
The rocket is expected to have a height of 34m and put a 200kg payload in a circular 600km polar orbit.

[Матрос]

Ув.Salo -очень познавательная инф-я по Громовержцу!Аргентина перед Вами в долгу. А нет ли еще ссылок по аргентинскому космосу?

[Salo]

Пошарьте здесь:
http://www.conae.gov.ar/

[Salo]

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2011/10/09/argentina-plans-first-domestic-satellite-launch/

Argentina Plans First Domestic Satellite Launch[/size]
by Doug Messier
on October 9, 2011, at 7:43 am


Tronador II rocket. (Credit: Sergio Panei Pitrau)

Argentina is looking to join the exclusive club of nations with the capacity to launch its own satellites by 2013.

Engineers are now working on the new Tronador II (Thunderer II) , a two-stage rocket that will be capable of launch a 200 kg payload into low-Earth orbit. According to El Argentino, engineering faculty at the Universidad Nacional de La Plata will begin tests on a Tronador prototype next year with the intention of having a vehicle ready to launch in 2013. The work is being overseen by the National Commission on Space Activities (CONAE). Argentina's first domestic satellite mission will lift off from a new launch pad at a military base in Puerto Belgrano.

The 34-meter tall rocket is based on the Tronador I, a single-stage booster that was first launched in 2007. The earlier rocket served as a technological testbed and only reached 20 km in altitude.

The Tronador II project is a key part of Argentina's National Space Plan, which also the domestic development of satellite systems, the establishment of the Institute of Space Studies, the creation of information systems using space data, and the expansion of ground infrastructure.

The most intriguing goal is the creation of a regional space agency. In late August, Argentina's Defense Minister, Arturo Puricelli, proposed the development of a South American space agency to his Brazilian counterpart, Celso Amorim. Brazil has its own ambitions in space, which include launching Ukraine's Cyclone-4 rocket from its Alcantara Launch Center and developing a family of boosters with Russia.[/size]

[Salo]

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26645.msg830514#msg830514

baldusi пишет:
First picture of the Tronador T4000 pathfinder rocket.
According the the Instituto Universitario Aeronáutico's newsletter, in the last page they explain their participation in the project. The T4000 engine is a 4000kgf rocket engine.

To recap:
Tronador 1
Launch Site: Puerto Belgrano Navy Base
Date:
Length: 3.4m
Weight: 60kg
Propellant: Anilin/Nitric Acid
Thrust: 500kgf x 10 sec
Liquid propulsion: . Successful.
Objective: testing of the telemetry and ground support team.

Tronador 1bis
Launch Site: Puerto Belgrano Navy Base
Date:
Propellant: Anilin/Nitric Acid
Thrust: 1500kgf x 10 sec
Result: 13km apogee and 21km downrange according to the GNC.

VS-30
Launch Site: Barreira do Inferno Launch Center.
Date: 2010-12-16
Objective: Flight validation of the GNC (gyroscope, accelerometer, positioning and a cold-gas attitude system that utilizes a solar sensor).
Result: 140km of apoggee. Payload made a parachute reentry and was successfully recovered from the sea.

T4000
Launch Site: Puerto Belgrano Navy Base?
Date: ?
Propellant: Hypergolic
Thrust: 4000kgf x ?? sec
Objective: Test GNC and validate engine technology?
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26645.0;attach=338289

[Salo]

baldusi пишет:

[Salo]

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26645.msg836587#msg836587

baldusi пишет:
More news about the T4000! Pictures taken 25th of Nov 2011. They are stating that it will fly by December this year.
I love that they do have a sense of humor.

baldusi пишет:
Rumors on the forums are that yesterday they tried to launch the T4000, and they couldn't ignite it. They also told me that it lacks a turbopump, so it's probably pressure fed. At the same time, the picture appears to show an ablative nozzle.

[Salo]

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26645.msg839231#msg839231

Ok, this was worse than I imagined. Apparently, the T4000 didn't had a purge. So after the launch failure, they had to "safe it" with a MAG. Yes, they shoot the tanks with a MAG from an helicopter! Apparently they shoot 50 shots, 15 were on target. This way they emptied the tanks.
I don't know what to say. Please someone tell me this is SOP. I always thought you could purge an hypergolic rocket. Or is there any particular problem of doing such a thing?

[Salo]

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26645.msg926323#msg926323

This is a Presentation of August 23th, 2011 by CONAE:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26645.0;attach=427395
There's some info about the SAC-D, some info about the CONAE's Falda del Carmen testing lab (shakers, vacuum chamber, anechoic chamber, etc.) for small sats. Then there's some information about the SAOCOM, with weight, measures, and a very interesting organizational chart. The B&W image is made by the SARAT, an aircraft borne SAR for development purposes of the SAOCOM subsystems.
And last, there's the latest concept of the Tronador II. It's a lot more logical from what I see:

LEO orbital launcher
Polar Orbits at altitude 600km
Maximum payload: 250kg (it's not clear if it it that to 600km or the maximum of the LV).
Built in Argentina
Launched in Argentina

Total Length: 27m
Total Weight: 60 tonnes
Dry Weight: 8 tonnes
First Stage: Diameter 2.5m, Thrust 90tonnes force.
Second Stage: Diameter 2.5m, Thrust 30tonnes force.
Third Stage: Diameter 1.5m, Thrust 4tonnes force.[/size]

[Salo]

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26645.msg952272#msg952272

baldusi пишет:

According to this article:
The failed T4000 was a test of the TVS system. It failed to ignite due to a valve. The planned impulse time was just 10 seconds.
The current plan has six stages, called VEX. Only four are talked about and I'll correct some mistakes that I'm assuming they are makings.

VEX 1: One stage. Apparently it will weight 1.8tonnes and have a 4tnf engine (the articles states it the other way around, which doesn't makes any sense). Apparently is a 30 seconds mission with an optional additional 30 seconds. Budgeted for 2013/14.
VEX 2: First Stage will use 3 x 4tnf engines. Second Stage will use a 4tnf engine. Budgeted for 2014/15/16.
VEX 3: One 30tnf engine. Budgeted from 2015 onwards.
VEX 4: One 30tnf engine.
VEX 5: First Stage 3 x 30tnf and Second Stage 1 x 30tnf + RSC (new development). Apparently it will stage at 80km.

I've mixed the information on the article with the information from the Budget Office. Just download the Excel, items 57125 (VEX I), 57126 (VEX II) and 57630 (VEX III).

[instml]

Аргентинский пуск? ? ? Орбитальный / суборбитальный?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26645.30

Argentina's CONAE might test Tronador/VEX 1 October 12-17 at 35-31.26S 057-11.3W

[pkl]

Ого! Это что, будет первый член Большого космического клуба из Южного полушария, да? :|

[Sharicoff]

VEX 1 - это прототип РН.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tronador_II#Perspectivas

Вероятно, первые 2 ступени по баллистической.

[Sharicoff]

http://www.zonamilitar.com.ar/foros/threads/proyecto-tronador-cohete-espacial.14493/page-77