ВНЕЗЕМНЫЕ РЕСУРСЫ

[Valerij]

Астероидом.
 .....

Отлично.
И теперь еще раз скажите, что перемещение астероидов в принципе невозможно:

Физика, наш дорогой пациент, не позволяет двигать астероиды сегодняшними средствами. Тем более, буксирами в 18 тон весом, бугагааа!!!

Так что хватит вам, Дмитрий Александрович, доктора с безупречными манерами из себя строить. По вашему же определению вы говорите глупость.

[Дмитрий Виницкий]

Сегодняшними возможностями невозможно. И ваш придурочный разум не в состоянии понять разницы между физической картиной мира и мурзилками для дебилов.
Кроме того, возникает конфликт с безопасностью невовлечнных сторон. Если такой "частник" в результате аварии изменит (теоретически) траекторию, то кто ответит за ущерб и жертвы? 10 тонн могут ещё как долететь!

[sychbird]

Тем не менее, рений доступен на Земле. И никто даже не знает, есть ли он вообще, в этих астероидах.

Да не в этом суть: если ли, нет ли. Суть в стоимости и доступности на земле неких особого класса ресурсов. Это просто экономическая отсылка на реплику ЛЬва с оценкой в несколько тысяч тонн как имеющей  практический смысл.
Она по моему мнению завышена, что я и иллюстрировал на примере рения. Не хотелось брать в качестве примера гелий 4 или еще что-нибудь одиозное.  

Вообще все оценки деятельности по сабжу Камерона и К0[/size]
на форуме куда-то не туда заехала.

Был в нашей истории известный персонаж Фридрих Цандер с его известной репликой: "Вперед на Марс".
Сказать, что его деятельность не принесла никаких плодов было бы несколько поверхностно.  :wink:
А искать глубокие инженерные истоки в его деятельности - наивно.

Пусть оно себе будет - потомки разберутся. А копья ломать? Чего ради!  :roll:

[LG]

Valerij писал(а):

Вот иллюстрация из этого отчета:

Там один гравиманевр. Или Вы таки не понимаете что такое гравиманевр?
 

А вот цитата из меня, любимого, по той же ссылке:

Зачем мне Ваши глупые цитаты из себя любимого, не имеющие отношения к теме? Лучше цитируем отчет:

.The large mass of the captured asteroid and relatively low thrust available from the Hall system, require that the spacecraft + asteroid must have the dV necessary to target the lunar gravity assist well before the lunar encounter. This requirement, which appears feasible, is not unlike the requirement of the Dawn mission to have a forced coast period well before the Mars Gravity Assist. The asteroid would arrive into the Earth-Moon system on a hyperbolic trajectory with positive C3, but after the lunar gravity assist, would have a negative C3 with respect to the Earth and would be gravitationally captured. The flyby could be targeted such that it would bring the asteroid back into a high lunar orbit, however, such an orbit would not be stable and the spacecraft would not remain captured by the Moon without additional dV from the SEP system. This is illustrated in Figs. 12 and 13 which show the flyby sequence in the Moon and Earth centered frames, respectively. The illustrated sequence would require no dV after targeting the flyby condition.

Здесь все ясно - гравитационный маневр у Луны даст такое изменение скорости, что на следующем витке связка астероид-буксир будет захвачена полем тяготенмя.
Далее смотрим табличку:

Где здесь несколько гравиманевров?

[Valerij]

Вот иллюстрация из этого отчета:

Там один гравиманевр. Или Вы таки не понимаете что такое гравиманевр?

Отчет вот здесь: http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=932128#932128

[LG]

Valerij писал(а):

Однако, как выяснилось, такие ресурсы есть.

Для Вас это может быть и новость, но это было известно всегда - сравнение стоимости добычи ресурса в космосе и доставки на Землю со стоимостью добычи ресурса на Земле.

Но любые такие ресурсы пока только приятный бонус. Причина проста, организовать их добычу дорого. И вот здесь на помощь приходят те продукты, которые можно добыть гарантировано. Это вода и рабочее тело. Плюс материалы для усиленной радиационной защиты жилых модулей.

И вот параллельно с добычей этих ресурсов можно организовать добычу концентратов, содержащих эти приятные бонусы.

Я рад, Валерич, что Вы наконец-то прочитали концепцию освоения Луны от РККЭ... :wink:

[ronatu]

....If you happened to be in the Seattle Museum of Flight last Tuesday, Apr. 24, you might have been able to squeeze into a news conference called by an outfit terming itself Planetary Resources, Inc. Planetary Resources' main distinction so far is that it has a lot of resources of the monetary kind.  Backers reportedly include Google CEO Larry Page, who is in possession of some $16 billion personally.

What Planetary Resources's co-founder Peter Diamandis wants to do is to mine asteroids within a decade, that is, by 2022 or so. Already they are planning to launch small orbital telescopes, modern versions of the old mining engineer's surveying transits, that they will use to search for likely prospects for a visit. But as in earth-bound mining, you are never completely sure what you have got until you go there and start digging.

The idea of mining extraterrestrial objects is not new. One writer at www.livescience.com traced the idea back to an 1898 short story endorsed by none other than Thomas Edison, whose single most costly failed project involved a Canadian iron-mine venture in 1902.


In 1944, Isaac Asimov used an asteroid mine of the future as a setting for one of his speculative pieces about whether robots could become sophisticated enough to foment rebellion. But Diamandis and company are not fiction: they have serious money and serious plans, and while I'm sure science fiction enthusiasms are in their backgrounds, their main motivation is to make more of what they have a lot of already, namely, money. But they want to make it in a cool way.

There are actually two aspects to their plans. One is to use asteroids as a resource for the thing that currently makes space flight so expensive in the first place, namely, the fuel. When you have to pack everything you need on a trip and can't count on finding any gas stations, it severely limits your options as to what else you can take along.

But several researchers have shown that if it was possible to establish fueling stations in space, it would make the logistics and economics of space travel much friendlier than they are now. So once you're in space, never mind gold or platinum or anything like that:  fuel is the most precious resource.  

And the idea of erecting a solar-powered hydrogen plant on an asteroid and making hydrogen from water (ideally) or rocks (in a pinch) would satisfy that need.  From a technical engineering standpoint, this aspect of the Planetary Resources plans makes a lot of sense.

What about the rest of it, namely, mining asteroids for profit by extracting rare materials such as platinum and so on?  I would urge Diamandis, Page and company to do a little reading in the history of 16th-century Spain. It was Spain more than any other country which did on a small scale what Planetary Resources is trying to do on a large scale: namely, exploited newly discovered mineral wealth on a near-monopoly basis for quite a while, from 1492 right up to the 1800s.  


The worst aspect of Spanish colonization of the Americas was their barbarous treatment of the native Americans, who were forced into slavery and furnished most of the labor involved in operating the gold mines that gave rise to the wealth that produced Spain's Golden Age of culture. Fortunately, no asteroid appears to have even non-sentient life on it, so that particular problem will not arise....

http://pddnet.com/editorial-karl-stephens-asteroid-mines-the-good-the-bad-and-the-guly-050812/?et_cid=2646853&et_rid=60900524&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fpddnet.com%2feditorial-karl-stephens-asteroid-mines-the-good-the-bad-and-the-guly-050812%2f

[ronatu]

....If you happened to be in the Seattle Museum of Flight last Tuesday, Apr. 24, you might have been able to squeeze into a news conference called by an outfit terming itself Planetary Resources, Inc. Planetary Resources' main distinction so far is that it has a lot of resources of the monetary kind.  Backers reportedly include Google CEO Larry Page, who is in possession of some $16 billion personally.

What Planetary Resources's co-founder Peter Diamandis wants to do is to mine asteroids within a decade, that is, by 2022 or so. Already they are planning to launch small orbital telescopes, modern versions of the old mining engineer's surveying transits, that they will use to search for likely prospects for a visit. But as in earth-bound mining, you are never completely sure what you have got until you go there and start digging.

The idea of mining extraterrestrial objects is not new. One writer at www.livescience.com traced the idea back to an 1898 short story endorsed by none other than Thomas Edison, whose single most costly failed project involved a Canadian iron-mine venture in 1902.


In 1944, Isaac Asimov used an asteroid mine of the future as a setting for one of his speculative pieces about whether robots could become sophisticated enough to foment rebellion. But Diamandis and company are not fiction: they have serious money and serious plans, and while I'm sure science fiction enthusiasms are in their backgrounds, their main motivation is to make more of what they have a lot of already, namely, money. But they want to make it in a cool way.

There are actually two aspects to their plans. One is to use asteroids as a resource for the thing that currently makes space flight so expensive in the first place, namely, the fuel. When you have to pack everything you need on a trip and can't count on finding any gas stations, it severely limits your options as to what else you can take along.

But several researchers have shown that if it was possible to establish fueling stations in space, it would make the logistics and economics of space travel much friendlier than they are now. So once you're in space, never mind gold or platinum or anything like that:  fuel is the most precious resource.  

And the idea of erecting a solar-powered hydrogen plant on an asteroid and making hydrogen from water (ideally) or rocks (in a pinch) would satisfy that need.  From a technical engineering standpoint, this aspect of the Planetary Resources plans makes a lot of sense.

What about the rest of it, namely, mining asteroids for profit by extracting rare materials such as platinum and so on?  I would urge Diamandis, Page and company to do a little reading in the history of 16th-century Spain. It was Spain more than any other country which did on a small scale what Planetary Resources is trying to do on a large scale: namely, exploited newly discovered mineral wealth on a near-monopoly basis for quite a while, from 1492 right up to the 1800s.  


The worst aspect of Spanish colonization of the Americas was their barbarous treatment of the native Americans, who were forced into slavery and furnished most of the labor involved in operating the gold mines that gave rise to the wealth that produced Spain's Golden Age of culture. Fortunately, no asteroid appears to have even non-sentient life on it, so that particular problem will not arise....

http://pddnet.com/editorial-karl-stephens-asteroid-mines-the-good-the-bad-and-the-guly-050812/?et_cid=2646853&et_rid=60900524&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fpddnet.com%2feditorial-karl-stephens-asteroid-mines-the-good-the-bad-and-the-guly-050812%2f

[ronatu]

http://tommytoy.typepad.com/.a/6a0133f3a4072c970b0163050b89ed970d-800wi

This is an unprecedented challenge — the only asteroid material ever returned to Earth comes from the Japanese Space Agency's Hayabusa spacecraft, which successfully returned a few hundred dust particles from asteroid 25143 Itokawa in 2010.

One possibility might be to find a useful asteroid and push it closer to Earth. A fairly low-power solar-electric ion engine could nudge a hunk of rock into orbit around the Earth, effectively creating a small second moon that could be easily accessed.

A recent white paper (.pdf) written by a team of scientists and engineers for the Keck Institute for Space Studies looked at exactly this proposition in order to use an asteroid for scientific and manned exploration. The team concluded that the technology exists, though such a plan would need at least $2.6 billion in funding. If Planetary Resources went this route, it would rack up a large initial investment, which doesn't include actually mining and returning material back to Earth, potentially adding many hundreds more millions of dollars.

JPL engineer John Brophy, who co-authored the paper said.

"It's one thing to understand the mining and refining processes and another thing to actually build it.  And everything in space tends to be harder than you think it will be."

Another option to simplify the process might be to bring the ore back to Earth for refining, though that presents its own set of challenges. Say for the sake of argument that you send a 5,500-pound robot (roughly the weight of a small car) to an asteroid and it can mine and carry back 100 times its own weight in asteroid material. On most asteroids, chopping up a one-ton chunk of regolith will generate less than an ounce of platinum. Even asteroids with the highest concentration of platinum yield only about two ounces of platinum per ton.

This means that with the current commodity prices, each of your robot miners will generate about $875,000, even on an asteroid with the highest platinum amounts. Given a mission cost that is at least hundreds of millions of dollars, it wouldn't be advantageous to refine ore on Earth.

There are also unknown financial aspects of a successful asteroid mining operation. The sudden influx of hundreds of tons of platinum into Earth's economy would certainly drive the commodity's price down. Looking at historical analogues, the enormous gold and silver reserves the Spanish inherited from their New World conquests led to terrible inflation and possibly the decline of their empire.

But Planetary Resources sees a platinum price drop as one of its potential goals.

Anderson said.  

"I would be overjoyed as a company if we brought back so much platinum that the price fell by a factor of 20 or 50."

Aluminum was incredibly expensive in the 1800s, before new technology allowed it to be easily separated from its ore, said Diamandis. Today, aluminum is used in hundreds of applications, something that Anderson and Diamandis would like to see happen to the platinum-group metals.

While mining platinum and other rare metals is Planetary Resource's way of bringing wealth to Earth, the world still has ample reserves of such material — South African platinum mines alone are expected to produce for another 300 years.

Brophy said.

"In my view, its questionable how the economics of asteroid-retrieval works if you're going to bring it to the ground.  It makes more sense if you're going to use the materials in space."

Asteroids contain one substance that is of extremely high value for astronauts: water. Water can be used for drinking and it can be broken into its constituents. Oxygen is valuable for life support in space-based habitats, while liquid oxygen and hydrogen are both used to produce rocket fuel.

Rather than having to lug all the fuel for a mission out of Earth's deep gravity well — an expensive proposition — having a "gas station" in space could help enable missions to Mars and beyond. Such a refueling depot might allow people to permanently live and work in space, another goal of Planetary Resources.

Of course, this creates a sort of chicken-and-egg problem. Do you generate tons of resources for your nonexistent space civilization first or do you get your space civilization started and then utilize the available resources?

Wired Science's resident space historian David S. Portree thinks asteroid mining might make more sense when we have a more established space-based habitats with a different economy and better technology.
He said.

"Right now it would be like a big oil tanker dropping anchor off the coast of medieval England.  The medieval English might identify the oil as a useful commodity, but wouldn't be able use enough to profit the tanker crew. Heck, they wouldn't know how to get it off the tanker, except in wooden pails and rowboats."

[ronatu]

COMMENTARY:  

The idea of sendiung robots to mine asteroids for their valuable metals like platinum and gold is complete and total science fiction, and the economics just don't seem to make any sense.  

I wonder how Google CEO Larry Page and Eric Schmidt got suckered into financially backing Planetary Resources useless idea?

[ronatu]

Блин и этой теме хана.
 :twisted: