CZ-9 - SLS по-китайски

[Salo]

Хех. Aviation Week проектирует китайский супертяж :-)

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/awst/2010/03/15/AW_03_15_2010_p22-211145.xml

Longer Marches[/size]
Mar 15, 2010
 
By Bradley Perrett
Beijing

The Chinese space industry is studying a Moon rocket in the class of the Saturn V while separately moving ahead with a medium-heavy launcher that will complete a modern, modular family of launch vehicles.

Chinese space engineers appear to be planning to assemble manned lunar spacecraft in orbit with two or more launches per mission.

The medium-heavy launch vehicle, previously foreshadowed as a relative of the new Long March 5 heavy launcher, is being developed under the name Long March 7. Long March 5 and 7 and the lighter Long March 6 will form a family of rockets, says the China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology.

Chinese industry will maximize economies of scale in production by building the three basic vehicles for a wide range of payloads while, in almost all applications, using only three basic stage modules and, apparently, two engine types.

The launcher for manned lunar missions, several times larger than even the Long March 5, would have a thrust at lift off of 3,000 tons, says the vice president of the academy, Liang Xiaohong, adding that the payload has not been defined. By comparison, the S-1C first stage of the Apollo program's Saturn V generated 3,470 metric tons at sea level.

The news of Chinese studies into such a mighty launcher comes as the Obama administration seeks to cancel the U.S. equivalent, the Ares V of the Constellation program, whose six main engines and two solid-fuel boosters would put out about 4,300 tons of thrust.

Since the lift-off thrust of the launcher will be lower than that of the Saturn V, it will be unable to deliver as great a mass to lunar orbit—probably about 35 tons, compared with the U.S. launcher's 45 tons, estimates one U.S. rocket engineer. But NASA needed that 45 tons for missions that were close to the minimum conceivable—brief stays on the Moon by two astronauts. Moreover, the Apollo equipment was built so lightly that even now the Chinese would probably struggle to do that minimum mission with much less mass.

So the thrust of the proposed Moon rocket strongly suggests that Chinese engineers plan to launch their lunar craft in at least two parts and assemble it in low Earth orbit, as NASA planned in the Constellation Program by launching the crew capsule separately. In proposing a Moon launch vehicle, the Chinese engineers are avoiding the risky alternative of a longer succession of Long March 5 launches.

Getting 3,000 tons of thrust under a single rocket presents a formidable technological challenge for China, whose largest engine so far, the YF-100, generates thrust of just 120 tons. The Soviet Union's disastrous experience with the 30-engine first stage of its N-1 lunar launcher argues against attempting such an arrangement with the YF-100.

China could alternatively develop or buy larger powerplants. The five F-1 engines of the Saturn V each generated 694 tons of thrust. The Russian RD-171, used on the Zenit launcher, puts out 770 tons from four thrust chambers. Four RD-171s would deliver 3,080 tons, and they would probably fit into a rocket airframe with a diameter of 8-10 meters (26-33 ft.), says the U.S. engineer.

An official from the Chinese space industry base under construction at Tianjin said last year that the plant could be adapted to handle rocket diameters of 8-10 meters. The Saturn V's first-stage diameter was 10.1 meters.[/size]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/world/china/cz-x.htm

China's Long March-X-(8?) Manned Lunar Booster[/size]

© C. P. Vick 2009 All Rights Reserved

6-21-10-- 7-28-10

Chinese booster development is run in a somewhat similar manner to Soviet era r esearch and development periods for a space booster and strategic ballistic missile development projects. The "design study development" known as the "Draft Project" second phase of the Chinese Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology review of the potential heavy lift booster after the Long March-5E medium heavy lift booster has been started from the middle of the present PRC Five Year Plan 1-2006 through 1-2011. When it was announced in March 2010 there was nothing officially scheduled for its development since only phase one of "concepts development" i.e. "Technical Proposal" had taken place up to that point. The studies are the standard second phase of launch vehicle development consideration in China's State Planning. There are a total of five phases that must be successfully accomplished before this booster would become operational part of the launch vehicle inventory. China in the mean time expects to replace most of its launch vehicle inventory with derivations in the Long March-5 series.

Multiple Five Year Plans from Concept to Flight Operations/Production:

Each stage in development matures in the middle years of the individual FYP. It generally takes two to three five years plans to be completed by the normal Soviet cycle.

Soviet Project Development Scheme for State Planning

"Concept development"

"Design studies development" with trade off options analysis.
"Design development" of the final design including sub scale testing, facilities support infrastructure development
"Actual development" of the test prototypes through flight test acceptance
"Production" of the accepted vehicles
"Technical proposal" Concept development

1. " Draft Project" Design studies development

2. "Technical Project" Design development of the final design including sub scale testing, facilities development

3 " Working Documentation" OKB Design specifications for the dedicated factory further development and eventual production

4. "Test samples manufacturing and State testing" Actual development of the test prototypes through flight test acceptance followed by production of the accepted vehicles

5. " Working documentation corrections and improvements of samples" Production

 CZ-X-? Heavy Lunar Booster Preliminary Details

The CZ-X-(?) heavy lift booster is to have a general liftoff thrust on the order of 3,000 metric tons [6,615,000 lbs f] verses the Long March-5 liftoff thrust of 1,000 tonnes [2,205,000. lbs f]. In this early phase of the design studies that will end in sub-scale vehicle configuration, dynamic, structural testing the actual settled upon design and the required payload configuration, payload capacity have not been fully resolved pending the results of the preliminary trade off design studies. Mission configuration trades off studies are still under consideration based on hardware experience already in the pipe line and those planned for the Long March-5 series.

Those design studies have now revealed the proposed five engines for it first stage with a launch thrust level for each engine of 600 metric tons [1,323,000 lbsf] or 3,000 metric tons [6,615,000 lbsf] thrust very similar to the Russian approach. This design seems to be based on a large diameter core with four large diameter strap-on boosters using the same engine. This is what Mr. Phillip Clark of the British Interplanetary Society suggested in published studies some years previously.

If the engine design studies are approved for development of the engine scheme for the next five year plan the engines component R&D would be started about mid way through the next five year plan 2011-2015. That would be the first article proposed for development expected to take two five year plans to be concluded successfully. It would be an indication of the PRC's government intentions to pursue a post LM-5E heavy lift launch vehicle program for future application to State approved missions.

Based on its thrust level at liftoff as presently presented suggest that this is an Earth Orbital Rendezvous booster design approach payload capacity possibly in the 30-35 metric tonnes range for such a mission. Without higher thrust a more direct 45-50 metric tonnes Saturn-V class approach is not possible with this lower thrust level. That is it is a similar to the launch earth orbit assembly design approach as Russia's, Federal Space Agency & industry are pursuing at the present time with a similar intent. Many of these issues may not be resolved until the middle of the next five year plan 1-2011 through 1-2016 where a decision will be made to delay or add it to the next five year plan for development and use of the national resources as the medium powered Long March-5e is due to come on line. It is already known that China has put off a manned lunar landing program for the 2026 through 2030 five year plan period. This fits the nominal State planning process scheduling. For further details see the following piloted lunar landing article: piloted-lunar-landing

China's Crewed Lunar Missions Planned for 2021-2025 / 2026-2030 Five Year Plans

In the mean time China plan to use the existing spacecraft variations and their boosters to do the initial un-crewed robotic lunar exploration precursor flights in the Chang'e-1 through Chang'e-4 series to accomplish "Orbiting, Landing & Returning missions" during the 2006-2010, 2011-2015 and 2016-2020 five year plans while pursuing the human crewed lunar program planning. The China Academy of Sciences has developed a twenty five year long term "Future Outlook" forecast the "space technology planning research strategy" document for the Peoples Republic of China (PRC's) government consideration which was finished in the present Five Year Plan (fyp-2006-2010). It is a road map of possibilities to study for decisions on whether to proceed with a human crewed lunar effort that would be very national S & T resource demanding. In addition to that they must be looking over their shoulders because of the 2006 lunar exploration coordination agreement with Russia already formalized. The Chinese crewed Space Station program has won out in the shorter term committed efforts and will come first. World trends influence this with the leadership that has full knowledge of the US , European and Russian crewed lunar planning in development?

China's Fiscal, Five Year Plan Process Defines the Timing Answers

Understanding China's, Five Year Plan fiscal process precisely defines what they have stated consistently all along for the second generation Salyut/Mir class space station to appear in the middle to end of the 2016-2020 Five Year Plan, while the Lunar effort is planned for the 2021 - 2025 and 2026 - 2030 five year plans. Right now the lunar effort is in the long term 25 year "Future Outlook" forecast plan for development considerations by the government. This is outside the normal three sets of five year plans. The next five year plan known as the forecast plan is being set in 2009-2010 to start January 1, 2011 through to Dec, 31, 2015 followed by the January 1, 2016-Dec. 31, 2020 with the outlook plan. So the Long Term Future Outlook plan of 2021-2025, 2026-2030 is but a discussion consideration issue to be settled by the government towards the end of the next five year plan known as the present forecast plan.

25 Year "Future Outlook" Planning Discussions

During 2007 several conceptual space programs began to be discussed as a prelude to the next five year plan introduction of the follow on 15-25 year future outlook plan 2021-2025 & 2026-2030 that is not on the official outlook plan. They included the discussion of Chinese crewed lunar flight (twice denied) and lunar base after 2018-2020 as well as a 20-25 ton manned space station program (once denied) for launch around 2020. Both programs would be dependent on the successful completion of the (Long March) CZ-5 launch vehicle. The Chinese, China National Space Administration (CNSA) made it clear that none of the conceptual programs are officially a part of any existing State plan as of now except the Space Station effort. These two conceptual programs were clearly headed for a collision among the various advocacy factions with in the ruling Chinese space and political leadership community with mock up work already completed on the space station concept. Space Station does seem to have taken precedent over manned lunar aspirations for the military dominant hand in the decisions. It is now apparent that the new CAS Chinese Academy of Sciences study of human crewed lunar aspirations was undertaken instead because it seemed to have not quite taken hold within the S&T and Military, Political leadership priorities as yet. The fact that such discussions have been publicly revealed certainly portends for those decisions to be made in this five year plan for the addition to the next official Outlook Plan of 2021-2025 and long term strategic planning forecast for 2026-2030 as a part of the next five year plan (2011-2015). This has manifested itself in the form of the design studies for the human crewed heavy lift lunar booster discussions.

There are subtle Chinese indications of planned lunar circumnavigation missions as a part of the build up to the crewed lunar landing program. See the following article issues: piloted-lunar

China 's Manned Lunar Effort in the Outlook Plans for 15 Years Hence

Previously it was noted that eventually down the road two five year plans beyond the present five year plan we could expect them to have started developing a CZ-5 based earth orbital rendezvous (EOR) four to six payload assembly or a Saturn-V class near direct or EOR based launch vehicle in the 3,000 – 4,000 ton's thrust category for human lunar landing and large earth orbit payloads. Once the CZ-5 booster becomes operational after 2014, the single launch crewed circumnavigation mission becomes possible and the lunar orbital mission becomes possible through EOR. This is because the Shenzhou spacecraft has built into its design the capacity for earth orbit and lunar orbital missions. It could with proper equipment also support a human lunar landing mission through EOR similar the present Russian mission concept utilizing a heavy lift earth orbital rendezvous booster design approach. Ultimately it is the political leadership that must support and justify these programs domestically in spite of how much the industry and scientist believe it to be necessary. It is after all their rice bowel. The final answer to the Science & Technology (S & T) leadership questions must be a political answer. This however, does not preclude un-crewed lunar exploration in support of future follow on human exploration of the Moon and un-crewed exploration of the planets. Certainly the introduction of the CZ-5 booster will be the advent to much more advanced un-crewed lunar exploration probably followed with a limited human lunar circumnavigation and lunar orbit program in the 2014-2015/2016-2020 now slipped to the 2021-2025/2026-2030 time frames. Any manned lunar landing program development would not be expected to manifest itself until the 2016-2020 and 2021-2025 five year plans with the actual manned lunar program following after that during the middle of the 15 th. or 16 th. five year plans. Although the manned lunar landing program prospects are apparently now in the 25 year " future outlook plans" for future serious consideration this is a far cry from being an actual committed State program which it is not by China .

Conclusion

Basically we now have the PRC China manned spaceflight planning laid out for the next three five year plans including this five year plan (2006-2010), 2011-2015, 2016-2020 with strong hints on the 2021- 2025 FYP which reflects how China intends to both equal or pull ahead of any of the then to exist world powers on the world stage in manned spaceflight as a part of its doctrinal belief that it can replace one of those world powers on the world stage towards the end of that period. Whether like Russia in its present economy that will not last the question is can China truly economically control and sustain this attempt remains uncertain but it is more probable than others as things stand today. The CZ-5 based EOR assembly payloads for a crewed lunar landing mission seems more probable at this point but it must continue to be watched through the coming next few FYPs. It could also carry out the human lunar landing mission through the introduction of a new booster beyond the CZ-5 booster's capacity but this at this time remains uncommitted. They have only in the last few years hinted at their 20-25 year forecast planning consideration requirements after the next five year plan. Such a 65- 100 metric ton plus capacity Saturn class launch vehicle "Technical Project" defining the immediate hardware technology development required in support of the future booster development planning. This is why this development project wise appears to be one five year plan ahead of its expected development schedule based on the Long March-5 experience.

This assumes that the leadership still supports such a policy with its even greater associated high resources demanding requirements on the command economy in the future. This is beyond the resource straining command economy commitment to the large support development production base infrastructure of the CZ-5E booster presently in progress. It alone is a full FYP behind schedule. Noting that in the military is the State as well as the 2018-2020 start of the main space station program one is left with the question of how China is to support that space station program as well as a crewed lunar effort at the same time. Crewed lunar circumnavigation and lunar orbit programs are conceivable but a crewed lunar landing or lunar base program is quite another thing that all nations alone would find difficult to economically support including China . This brings into question whether China will have a human lunar landing capability until the middle of the fiscal 2021-2025 Five Year Plan or soon afterwards in the 2026-2030 FYP.[/size]

[Salo]

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=none&id=news/awst/2010/11/01/AW_11_01_2010_p41-265866.xml&headline=China%20Studying%201-Million-Lb.-Thrust%20Engine&next=10

China Studying 1-Million-Lb.-Thrust Engine[/size]

Nov 10, 2010
 By Bradley Perrett
Beijing

China is studying a rocket engine with thrusts of 300-500 tons (660,000-1.1 million lb.), up to four times as powerful as its current equipment, while also working on reusable space launchers, senior leaders have told a U.S. industry delegation.

The pace of Chinese launches is accelerating, says Yang Baohua, president of spacecraft-builder Cast. China has launched 11 satellites this year, has two at their launch sites preparing to go and will follow them with one more, making it 14 for the year. Next year it will launch 20, he says.

Yang made the remarks to the first trade delegation to China organized by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics—which was warmly received by the Chinese, eager to enhance relations, even though U.S. law continues to forbid technical ties between the two national industries.

A week after NASA Administrator Charles Bolden visited China, the group from large and small U.S. space companies and academia, and also this Beijing-based Aviation Week reporter, were shown such facilities as the assembly hall for the Long March 2F launcher used for manned missions. Senior officials, headed by Ma Xingrui, president of national space contractor Casc, carefully answered questions and asked some in return—wondering, for example, about the exact status of the U.S. Ares program.

In receiving the delegation, they added to the transparency of the Chinese space program without revealing anything that a Western counterpart would regard as particularly sensitive.

Ma stresses that the 300-500-ton engine is only in the conceptual stage. That is probably because its application, a proposed Moon rocket and the manned lunar missions it would launch, have not received government approval.

The immediate effort is focused on the YF-100, a 120-ton-thrust engine using liquid hydrogen and kerosene (RP-1) that will be a key technology for China's forthcoming family of modern launchers, the largest of which will be the Long March 5 (AW&ST March 15, p. 22).

"I remind government leaders that engines are the heart of space launch technology, and that is where money must be invested," Ma says.

Ma says the delegation might be seen as an early step in technical collaboration. "The peaceful use of outer space is to benefit all human kind. . . . If we cannot find a basis for future collaboration, it will hurt both sides."

It is a familiar line—and one that has so far failed to move a U.S. government worried about technology transfer and the Chinese space program's military links, even though European countries do allow China to launch their satellites.

The institutes and companies visited were mostly part of Casc, whose full name is China Aerospace Science & Technology Corp. Apart from satellite-maker Cast, they included rocket-builder Calt, satellite-operator China Satcom and the government office that exploits Earth-observation data, Cresda.

Although U.S. companies cannot trade with the Chinese space industry, the delegation's aim was to open "a dialogue between the U.S. space industry and our Chinese counterparts, recognizing that any potential future business opportunities must start by becoming familiar with each other," says group leader Robert Lindberg.

Among the new Chinese family, the midsize, Long March 7 is still in the planning stage, says Hao Zhaoping, the vice president of Calt.

One of two main aims of Calt's development effort is to increase launcher capacity, says Peng Xiaobo, director of the research and development center, apparently referring to Long March 5. "Second, in accordance with future requirements, we are trying to develop reusable launch vehicles," Peng told the U.S. delegation, without elaborating.

"We have approval from the government to establish a space station and we have approval to establish experimental laboratories in space," Shang Zhi, director-general of manned space flight at Cast, told the delegation. "In those areas we would like to start cooperation with the U.S. The technology can be improved by both sides."

The first laboratory, Tiangong 1, is due to be launched next year as a docking target. The delegation saw its Long March 2F, a human-rated launcher, under assembly in a hall of Assembly Building 4B, one of three such buildings at Calt's main plant, at Beijing. Adjacent halls were used for tests and storage and for assembly of Long March 3 rockets.

The program to build the space station by about 2020 has now formally begun. With a core module of 20 tons, the station will have to be launched on a Long March 5.

[Salo]

http://russian.news.cn/science/2011-03/03/c_13759929.htm

В Китае разрабатывается тяжелая ракета-носитель, которая способна вывести в космос полезный груз весом 130 т[/size]
2011-03-03 20:02:24 | Russian.News.Cn

Пекин, 3 марта /Синьхуа/ -- Член ВК НПКСК, секретарь парткома Китайского научно-исследовательского института ракетной техники Лян Сяохун сегодня в интервью корр. агентства Синьхуа проинформировал, что в настоящее время в стране разрабатывается ракета-носитель тяжелого класса, которая способна вывести в космос полезный груз весом 130 т.

Как сообщил Лян Сяохун, диаметр тяжелой ракеты-носителя окажется в 2 раза больше, чем у действующей ракеты-носителя, в целях удовлетворения потребностей выполнения таких задач, как посадка на поверхность Луны и запуск космического летательного аппарата для исследования глубокого космоса.

Разработка ракеты-носителя тяжелого класса рассматривается как один из важных шагов Китая в реализации стратегии освоения космоса. Данный проект не только значительно повысит уровень космических технологий Китая, но и окажет позитивное влияние на развитие основных отраслей промышленности и технический прогресс производств продукции гражданского назначения, отметил Лян Сяохун.

[Salo]

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=8447.msg775140#msg775140

The Chinese have started to do study work on something that could become the Sino-SLS [tm].

Back in 2010; they made noises about what it would look like:

BBC Link

The rocket's architecture would thus be similar to the one adopted for the Long March-5 rocket, but at a considerably grander scale.

It seems around January 2011, the first papers from the Chinese Aerospace industry on this concept were released.

---------------------------------------

PDF Document
Citation

Research on power system of heavy launch vehicle in China

TAN Yong-hua (Academy of Aerospace Propulsion Technology,Xi'an 710100,China)  

The development trend of future aerospace industry is analyzed.The necessity of developing the heavy launch vehicles and high thrust rocket engines to realize the manned moonfall and deep space exploration is described.The main power system of heavy launch vehicles of China is planned.A integrated scheme of 600 t LOX/kerosene rocket engine and 200 t LOX/LH2 rocket engine is put forward.The primary parameters of the two engines are chosen.The key technology and development condition of the rocket engines is analyzed.The development effort is schemed.The development of the two engines will be completed in about 2020 according to the level of technology and industrial base.

---------------------------------------

PDF Document
Citation

Study on Large Solid Booster Technology for Heavy Launch Vehicle
Ye Dingyou   Gao Bo   Gan Xiaosong  Wand Jianru

AbstractLarge solid booster is the first choice of the power system for heavy bundled launch vehicle. Based on a deep analysis of the status and characteristics of foreign heavy launch vehicles and large solid boosters, as well as the current technological foundation and research capabilities in China, the concept of design, key technologies and development scheme of a kilo-ton class large solid booster are proposed in accordance with the technological requirements of China's manned lunar project.

-------------------------------

PDF Document
Citation

Research on High Thrust LOX/ Kerosene Rocket Engine As Main Power System of Manned Lunar Project
Li Bin   Luan Xi ting   Zhang Xiao ping

Abstract: High thrust LOX/ Kerosene rocket engine is not only the development orientation of aerospace main power system, but also the power foundation of important aerospace activities such as manned lunar project. The development scheme of 600t high thrust LOX/ Kerosene rocket engine with two thrust chambers as main power system for China's manned lunar project is put forward, and the general design of staged combustion cycle and swinging after pump is provided. At the same time, the main parameters of the engine, the assembly configuration, the key technologies and the future utilization of the engine are presented. It will greatly improve the launching capability of China, and will ultimately meet the requirements of important space activities such as manned lunar project and deep space explorations.

--------------------------------

There's also a definition of the Chinese Phase I Manned Moon Program using the LM-5 and it's derivatives:

PDF Document

------------------------------------

As well as another paper defining an evolutionary path and applications for Sino-SLS:

PDF Document

----------------------

If you're too impatient to read through all of that, here's the summary and bulletpoints:

Like NASA, the people studying the so far hypothetical CZ-X are split between Kerolox and Solids for booster applications.

Both configurations have a core stage diameter of 9 meters (29.5~ feet).


Left is CZ-X Configuration A with Kerolox, Right is CZ-X Configuration B with Solids.

CZ-X Basic Specs

Bulletpointed further:

CZ-X Configuration A (Kerolox)

[*:ac5b5d02b3]4 x 3.35m diameter Boosters; each with a 650 tonne thrust kerolox engine; 350 tonnes of propellants.
[*:ac5b5d02b3]9m Core Stage with four 650 tonne thrust kerolox engines and 1,756 tonnes of propellants.
[*:ac5b5d02b3]9m Upper Stage with two 200 tonne thrust LH2 engines and 500 tonnes of propellants.
[*:ac5b5d02b3]5,200 tonnes of liftoff thrust and 130 tonnes to orbit.
[/list]

CZ-X Configuration B (Solids)

[*:ac5b5d02b3]4 x 3.5m diameter 5 segment Solid Rocket Boosters; each with 1,000 tonnes of thrust and 575 tonnes of propellant.
[*:ac5b5d02b3]9m Core Stage with five 200 tonne thrust LH2 engines and 1,000tonnes of propellants.
[*:ac5b5d02b3]9m Upper Stage with one 200 tonne thrust LH2 engines and 200 tonnes of fuel.
[*:ac5b5d02b3]5,000 tonnes of liftoff thrust and 133 tonnes to orbit.
[/list]

Right now, all of this is just paper studies. Any decision on Sino-SLS won't happen for several more years at the least. Some decisions *may* have been reached in the latest five year plan; we just don't know about them yet publically.

The Chinese have already envisioned the following applications for a 130+ tonne rocket:

[*:ac5b5d02b3]Phase II Manned Lunar Exploration (beyond that afforded by Long March 5 and it's derivatives)
[*:ac5b5d02b3]Mars Robotic Exploration Missions with 41 tonne payloads.
[*:ac5b5d02b3]Manned Mars Missions
[*:ac5b5d02b3]Constructing orbital solar power plant with 10,000 MW capacity, massing some 50,000 tonnes, requiring 620+ launches (!!!!)
[*:ac5b5d02b3]Deep Space Missions[/list]

[Salo]

Двигатели:

[Salo]

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26440.msg792743#msg792743

There was also progress in larger solid-motor development. In parallel to the 130-ton heavy launch vehicle studies, studies on large solid boosters started in early 2011. These studies are undertaken by the 4th Academy of CASC. The academy has test-fired a 120-ton motor in March 2009, and a 1-m diameter segmental solid-motor in April 2010. A 2-m diameter, three segment demonstrator will be tested in the near future.

[Дмитрий В.]

Что-то как-то получпается 150-160 т на НОО, а вовсе не 130-133 :roll:

[Зомби. Просто Зомби]

Вот что у них заведомо есть, так достаточное количество населения, которое надо "просто чем-то занять".

А, возможно, в дальнейшем понадобится и достаточно мощный экономический регулятор, в качестве которого может выступать космическая программа.

Как минимум, "выпускной клапан", которым можно "поднимать давление" либо "стравливать пар", по необходимости.

Ну и плюс - "технопарк", чистое развитие науки и технологии.

Вот уж что-что, а "металлоемким" космическая технология не является.

Вроде такЪ.

[pkl]

Всё правильно. Молодцы. И! Заметьте! ПН "китайца" тоже приближается к 200 т. Может, всё-таки, и нам? Или у России опять свой, особый путь?

P.S.: Помню, сижу на лекции по политологии. Зашла речь о путях развития демократии. Наш препод отвлёкся: "Ну вот смотрите: вот дорога прямая. Вот дорога кривая. А кто это там на ушах идёт? Аааа... это Россия, у ней свой, особый путь :!:  :shock: "

 

Что, опять?

[Зомби. Просто Зомби]

Оптимально - ЛОС на основе "практической" ракеты.

Если и говорить о ком-то, как об "особом", так это как раз Китай, где "особо многочисленное население"

[Зомби. Просто Зомби]

Даже янкерсы содержат технологии больших ракет исключительно из соображений держать Россию в узде.
Если бы не это, они давно бы все порезали нафик.

[Зомби. Просто Зомби]

Россия же вообще не может таким баловством заниматься.
То есть, может, но только в условиях чрезвычайки.
Но сейчас, наверное, и этого бы не смогла.

Ну просто НЕ МОЖЕТ - и все.
И точка.
Невопрос.

[pkl]

Да? Ну а если собирать супертяж из блоков 4,1 или 5 м? По одиночке они - вполне практическая ракета, а вместе - супертяж. Что тут такого невозможного?

[Матрос]

А нам,а нам...Чего уж мелочиться: слепим что-нибудь полузатопляемое по типу американского Sea Dragon из 60-х ,и сразу 450 тонн в безвоздушное пространство..Химия сейчас -это единственный и кажущийся правильным выход.Но в перспективе это очевидный тупик-поэтому желательно более плотно приобщаться к книжкам Кларка и делать выводы.

[us2-star]

А нам,а нам...Чего уж мелочиться: слепим что-нибудь полузатопляемое по типу американского Sea Dragon из 60-х ,и сразу 450 тонн в безвоздушное пространство..Химия сейчас -это единственный и кажущийся правильным выход.Но в перспективе это очевидный тупик-поэтому желательно более плотно приобщаться к книжкам Кларка и делать выводы.

Всё нижесказанное - ИМХО..
Если человеству понадобится 500 тн одним куском на НОО, оно их туда выведет...
в 21 веке - лет за 5-50 смотря по политике...
Технически неразрешимых проблем нет.. до НОО...

[Матрос]

Если не будет технических проблем с выводом умеренно больших масс(100-500 тонн)за вменяемые деньги,то все последующие проблемы перестают быть таковыми.Проблема в том что современная конструкторская мыссль уж слишком однобоко заточена для решения этого вопроса.

[us2-star]

Если не будет технических проблем с выводом умеренно больших масс(100-500 тонн)

Технических проблем нет.

за вменяемые деньги,

вменяемость денег зависит только от вменяемости целей достигаемых их тратой...

то все последующие проблемы перестают быть таковыми.Проблема в том что современная конструкторская мыссль уж слишком однобоко заточена для решения этого вопроса.

Современная конструкторсая мысль заточена на достижение запрашиваемого результата за максимально возможные средства, она с радостью перезаточится, и последует за любой поставленной целью в размерах выделяемого финансирования...
П.С. Прошу прощения, вообще-то это оффтоп...

[Матрос]

Технических проблем нет.

Как это нет тех.проблем??
Безусловно ,громадье научно-технического потенциала китайского народа,практически не поддается никаким подсчетам.Но китайцы идут по заведомо пройденному пути.И имеется большущий вопрос смогут ли они поставить на штамповочное пр-во такое изделие как CZ-X.(чего не сумел СССР на пике развития).И как уже было сказано ранее-это пока под силу единственному государству на планете.Лично мне очень симпатичны инновационные усилия Поднебесной(та же Haier и др. компании),если удасться построить такую тяжелую машину-честь и хвала.Но главное Китай(как и другие "молодые космические державы") не зашорены установками и вполне могут вложится в разработки Carbon Nanotechnologies и Ииджимы,со всеми вытекающими.
[/quote]

[Дмитрий Инфан]

Безусловно ,громадье научно-технического потенциала китайского народа,практически не поддается никаким подсчетам.Но китайцы идут по заведомо пройденному пути.И имеется большущий вопрос смогут ли они поставить на штамповочное пр-во такое изделие как CZ-X.(чего не сумел СССР на пике развития).

Сумеют, если не случится Перестройка.

[Alex_II]

Сумеют, если не случится Перестройка.

А у них-то с чего? Жопа у них вроде не на подходе в отличие от СССР середины 80х...